1
00:00:04,249 --> 00:00:01,880
somewhere in the skies is brought to you

2
00:00:06,470 --> 00:00:04,259
by hello fresh delicious healthy food

3
00:00:06,950 --> 00:00:06,480
delivered to your door and made in your

4
00:00:08,330 --> 00:00:06,960
kitchen

5
00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:08,340
next time you're listening to the show

6
00:00:13,009 --> 00:00:10,290
while preparing your hello fresh meal

7
00:00:16,609 --> 00:00:13,019
visit hello fresh CA and use the promo

8
00:00:18,590 --> 00:00:16,619
code somewhere 54 50% off your first box

9
00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:18,600
courtesy of your friends at the antic of

10
00:00:25,099 --> 00:00:22,890
podcast network and hellofresh warning

11
00:00:27,349 --> 00:00:25,109
if you like your UFO literature to

12
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:27,359
confirm what you already know this is

13
00:00:31,339 --> 00:00:29,730
not the book for you from white crow

14
00:00:34,370 --> 00:00:31,349
books comes a brand new collection of

15
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:34,380
essays for teen authors one goal to

16
00:00:39,470 --> 00:00:36,570
shatter the UFO topic and pick up the

17
00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:39,480
pieces in a whole new light compiled and

18
00:00:44,119 --> 00:00:41,489
edited by Robbie Graham with a foreword

19
00:00:46,970 --> 00:00:44,129
by Professor Diana Walsh basillica UFOs

20
00:00:49,279 --> 00:00:46,980
reframing the debate is a cold hard slap

21
00:00:52,700 --> 00:00:49,289
in the face for ufology delivered with

22
00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:52,710
love UFOs reframing the debate available

23
00:00:56,389 --> 00:00:55,050
now in paperback and ebook on Amazon and

24
00:00:59,479 --> 00:00:56,399
at Barnes & Noble the Book Depository

25
00:01:01,040 --> 00:00:59,489
and the iBooks store for a complete list

26
00:01:02,740 --> 00:01:01,050
of contributors and to learn more visit

27
00:01:11,539 --> 00:01:02,750
Robbie Graeme UK

28
00:01:11,549 --> 00:01:19,610
this is somewhere in the skies Bransford

29
00:01:19,620 --> 00:01:33,500
[Music]

30
00:01:38,580 --> 00:01:36,000
welcome to somewhere in the skies I'm

31
00:01:40,740 --> 00:01:38,590
your host Ryan Sprague on the premiere

32
00:01:42,810 --> 00:01:40,750
episode of somewhere in the skies I sat

33
00:01:45,300 --> 00:01:42,820
down to speak to UFO researcher in

34
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:45,310
historian Richard Dolan we talked all

35
00:01:50,580 --> 00:01:48,250
about media bias when covering the UFO

36
00:01:52,950 --> 00:01:50,590
topic it was a fascinating journey

37
00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:52,960
through the way news media has shaped

38
00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:55,450
and manipulated our perception of a

39
00:01:59,520 --> 00:01:57,850
mystery that has plagued us for almost a

40
00:02:01,499 --> 00:01:59,530
century if you haven't heard that

41
00:02:02,940 --> 00:02:01,509
interview I highly suggest going back

42
00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:02,950
and giving it a listen

43
00:02:07,050 --> 00:02:04,630
it was a hell of a way to kick off the

44
00:02:08,820 --> 00:02:07,060
podcast trust me and you'll also get to

45
00:02:12,180 --> 00:02:08,830
see the primitive nature of my first

46
00:02:15,030 --> 00:02:12,190
attempts of audio editing it was not

47
00:02:18,090 --> 00:02:15,040
pretty anyways the idea that media can

48
00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:18,100
play such a large role in our perception

49
00:02:22,530 --> 00:02:20,530
of UFOs isn't a new one but it's

50
00:02:25,500 --> 00:02:22,540
certainly a part of the entire UFO

51
00:02:27,540 --> 00:02:25,510
question we must always be aware of and

52
00:02:29,490 --> 00:02:27,550
today we're gonna tackle the way

53
00:02:32,790 --> 00:02:29,500
Hollywood has shaped the narrative of

54
00:02:35,819 --> 00:02:32,800
UFOs aliens and how we deal with the

55
00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:35,829
more fantastical angles versus the hard

56
00:02:41,670 --> 00:02:38,650
lined reality and truth behind these

57
00:02:43,949 --> 00:02:41,680
topics how deep is the connection

58
00:02:47,729 --> 00:02:43,959
between the US intelligence agencies

59
00:02:50,670 --> 00:02:47,739
truly go when UFO and alien themed media

60
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:50,680
is created where does the truth end and

61
00:02:56,009 --> 00:02:53,290
the lies masked in fictional

62
00:02:58,319 --> 00:02:56,019
storytelling truly begin this is a

63
00:03:00,840 --> 00:02:58,329
fascinating journey through these very

64
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:00,850
questions and a guest you won't soon

65
00:03:04,710 --> 00:03:01,450
forget

66
00:03:06,780 --> 00:03:04,720
but first I'm always curious with UFO or

67
00:03:09,690 --> 00:03:06,790
alien themed movies really left an

68
00:03:12,090 --> 00:03:09,700
impression on people so I took a little

69
00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:12,100
listener poll and these were some of the

70
00:03:17,550 --> 00:03:15,310
results Chris says the movie hangar 18

71
00:03:19,229 --> 00:03:17,560
it's the closest to the truth in terms

72
00:03:21,569 --> 00:03:19,239
of the government's involvement with

73
00:03:24,479 --> 00:03:21,579
this phenomenon plus it was filmed in

74
00:03:26,759 --> 00:03:24,489
Big Springs Texas the site of many UFO

75
00:03:29,610 --> 00:03:26,769
rumors and secret underground bases

76
00:03:32,670 --> 00:03:29,620
Wayne and Matthew both said they enjoyed

77
00:03:34,860 --> 00:03:32,680
the found footage film area 51 I've yet

78
00:03:36,660 --> 00:03:34,870
to see this one myself guys but I really

79
00:03:39,210 --> 00:03:36,670
wanted to see how they handle the lore

80
00:03:41,129 --> 00:03:39,220
of this iconic secret base so I'll

81
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:41,139
definitely be checking that one up now

82
00:03:46,930 --> 00:03:44,210
Sammy Vance Stephen and Chris

83
00:03:49,390 --> 00:03:46,940
went with fire in the sky the terrifying

84
00:03:51,610 --> 00:03:49,400
recounting of Travis Waltons alien

85
00:03:54,370 --> 00:03:51,620
abduction experience staying on the

86
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:54,380
topic of abductions the Fourth Kind and

87
00:03:58,180 --> 00:03:55,730
dark skies

88
00:03:59,830 --> 00:03:58,190
both racked up a ton of votes for their

89
00:04:02,350 --> 00:03:59,840
faithfulness to the high strangeness

90
00:04:05,620 --> 00:04:02,360
that often accompanies an abduction

91
00:04:08,470 --> 00:04:05,630
experience John really enjoyed 1992's

92
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:08,480
docudrama good brothers saying that he

93
00:04:13,030 --> 00:04:10,730
was so glad someone took the time to

94
00:04:15,730 --> 00:04:13,040
talk to you and film the remaining

95
00:04:18,070 --> 00:04:15,740
contactees before they passed on the

96
00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:18,080
movie is weird sweet and there's some

97
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:20,690
amazing vintage footage from giant rock

98
00:04:26,110 --> 00:04:23,570
and its attendees a ton of female

99
00:04:29,860 --> 00:04:26,120
listeners all agreed on a Carl Sagan

100
00:04:32,770 --> 00:04:29,870
classic Becky Lynn Cheryl and Laura went

101
00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:32,780
with contact Becky adds that the faith

102
00:04:38,350 --> 00:04:35,690
versus science theme shows that anything

103
00:04:40,630 --> 00:04:38,360
is possible it fills her with Wonder and

104
00:04:42,490 --> 00:04:40,640
hope for future generations

105
00:04:45,370 --> 00:04:42,500
I would have to agree on that guys

106
00:04:47,860 --> 00:04:45,380
Michael enjoyed the film under the skin

107
00:04:50,530 --> 00:04:47,870
he had this to say to my knowledge it

108
00:04:53,170 --> 00:04:50,540
was the only alien movie ever made that

109
00:04:56,170 --> 00:04:53,180
truly felt alien had incomprehensible

110
00:04:59,020 --> 00:04:56,180
alien imagery and logic and fully

111
00:05:01,390 --> 00:04:59,030
situated itself in the alien point of

112
00:05:04,810 --> 00:05:01,400
view it felt like a documentary film

113
00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:04,820
made by an alien that is a perfect way

114
00:05:08,770 --> 00:05:06,770
to describe the tone of this one Michael

115
00:05:12,370 --> 00:05:08,780
another listener by the name of Michael

116
00:05:15,460 --> 00:05:12,380
went with the UFO incident he says it is

117
00:05:17,530 --> 00:05:15,470
the most accurate of all the UFO cases

118
00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:17,540
made into a movie the Betty and Barney

119
00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:20,090
Hill abduction case is my favorite

120
00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:22,250
because it has evidence of origin for

121
00:05:25,150 --> 00:05:24,650
one of the alien races who visit our

122
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:25,160
planet

123
00:05:29,740 --> 00:05:27,890
I thought James Earl Jones's acting was

124
00:05:32,100 --> 00:05:29,750
right on the mark when it came to

125
00:05:35,650 --> 00:05:32,110
portraying Barney Hills fear and anxiety

126
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:35,660
John and Marlena went with invasion of

127
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:38,090
the body snatchers both agreeing that

128
00:05:41,650 --> 00:05:40,490
the form of invasion in this movie was

129
00:05:44,410 --> 00:05:41,660
very unique

130
00:05:46,780 --> 00:05:44,420
and quite plausible little scary if you

131
00:05:48,850 --> 00:05:46,790
ask me the big winners with the most

132
00:05:51,830 --> 00:05:48,860
votes were Close Encounters of the Third

133
00:05:54,890 --> 00:05:51,840
Kind The Day the Earth Stood Still and

134
00:05:57,409 --> 00:05:54,900
there were way too many names here so

135
00:06:00,500 --> 00:05:57,419
it's clear that these three films had a

136
00:06:03,020 --> 00:06:00,510
huge impact on people and will tackle

137
00:06:05,210 --> 00:06:03,030
even more films with this week's guest

138
00:06:08,180 --> 00:06:05,220
Robbie Graham has been interviewed about

139
00:06:11,540 --> 00:06:08,190
UFOs and the politics of Hollywood for

140
00:06:13,909 --> 00:06:11,550
BBC radio coast to coast am and Vanity

141
00:06:16,250 --> 00:06:13,919
Fair his articles have appeared in a

142
00:06:19,940 --> 00:06:16,260
variety of publications including the

143
00:06:22,190 --> 00:06:19,950
Guardian New Statesman film facts 14

144
00:06:24,770 --> 00:06:22,200
times and the Peer Review Journal of

145
00:06:26,900 --> 00:06:24,780
North American studies he holds an MA

146
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:26,910
with distinction in Cinema Studies from

147
00:06:30,860 --> 00:06:28,770
the University of Bristol as a

148
00:06:33,050 --> 00:06:30,870
professional educator Robbie has

149
00:06:35,330 --> 00:06:33,060
designed and delivered film and media

150
00:06:37,879 --> 00:06:35,340
courses at multiple learning levels at

151
00:06:40,190 --> 00:06:37,889
Stafford College and the University of

152
00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:40,200
Bristol he is the editor of silver

153
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:42,930
screen saucers calm and the recently

154
00:06:49,190 --> 00:06:46,530
released anthology UFOs reframing that

155
00:06:52,159 --> 00:06:49,200
debate today we talk all about his book

156
00:06:55,250 --> 00:06:52,169
silver screen saucers separating fact

157
00:06:58,790 --> 00:06:55,260
from fantasy in Hollywood's UFO movies

158
00:07:01,100 --> 00:06:58,800
so grab your popcorn sit back relax and

159
00:07:04,580 --> 00:07:01,110
enjoy this week's interview with Robbie

160
00:07:06,830 --> 00:07:04,590
Graham you think you've experienced it

161
00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:06,840
but only being interested in UFOs as a

162
00:07:18,620 --> 00:07:13,770
teenager is challenges it wasn't exactly

163
00:07:19,010 --> 00:07:18,630
the best icebreaker for socially yeah

164
00:07:20,540 --> 00:07:19,020
yeah

165
00:07:22,100 --> 00:07:20,550
so you have to keep a secret really

166
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:22,110
until you like twenty five and you don't

167
00:07:26,690 --> 00:07:24,050
know any other people you used to know

168
00:07:30,980 --> 00:07:26,700
it's the coming out of the closet for us

169
00:07:32,779 --> 00:07:30,990
does it work take any more of you

170
00:07:34,940 --> 00:07:32,789
interview time right not at all man I

171
00:07:37,879 --> 00:07:34,950
love talking about this stuff but yeah

172
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:37,889
let's just dive into it if we don't mind

173
00:07:44,930 --> 00:07:41,850
um I've been following your work for a

174
00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:44,940
while now across the Internet highways

175
00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:47,610
as it were I've seen essays you'd

176
00:07:53,750 --> 00:07:50,610
written I'd seen websites she'd

177
00:07:56,060 --> 00:07:53,760
contributed to and I was just I was

178
00:07:58,310 --> 00:07:56,070
excited and happy to finally see someone

179
00:08:02,029 --> 00:07:58,320
looking at this angle that you took with

180
00:08:04,279 --> 00:08:02,039
the UFO not so much phenomenon but UFOs

181
00:08:05,540 --> 00:08:04,289
in general and that was connecting them

182
00:08:08,330 --> 00:08:05,550
to film

183
00:08:10,730 --> 00:08:08,340
- TV - Hollywood in general this is

184
00:08:13,369 --> 00:08:10,740
something I am very passionate about I

185
00:08:17,210 --> 00:08:13,379
am first and foremost a playwright and

186
00:08:20,390 --> 00:08:17,220
screenwriter a film buff and to find a

187
00:08:21,950 --> 00:08:20,400
mixture between UFOs and that is a dream

188
00:08:23,990 --> 00:08:21,960
come true for me and that's where I came

189
00:08:26,629 --> 00:08:24,000
across your work and that sort of

190
00:08:28,790 --> 00:08:26,639
culminated into a book you have out

191
00:08:30,860 --> 00:08:28,800
called silver-screen saucers sorting

192
00:08:32,990 --> 00:08:30,870
fact from fantasy and Hollywood's UFO

193
00:08:34,820 --> 00:08:33,000
movies so I kind of wanted to talk to

194
00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:34,830
you today about that so I have with me

195
00:08:37,699 --> 00:08:36,810
today guys Robby Graham the author of

196
00:08:39,769 --> 00:08:37,709
said book

197
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:39,779
how you doing Robby I'm good thanks -

198
00:08:43,790 --> 00:08:41,450
it's a pleasure to be speaking with you

199
00:08:46,340 --> 00:08:43,800
fantastic so I guess we could sort of

200
00:08:49,670 --> 00:08:46,350
start with your origin story as it were

201
00:08:52,460 --> 00:08:49,680
I always love taking the comic book

202
00:08:55,460 --> 00:08:52,470
angle um Wendy here you're interesting

203
00:08:57,829 --> 00:08:55,470
let's say flying saucers when did it

204
00:09:02,410 --> 00:08:57,839
actually begin I started to be

205
00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:02,420
interested in flying saucers UFOs aliens

206
00:09:09,410 --> 00:09:07,410
goblins you know like monsters Bigfoot

207
00:09:12,829 --> 00:09:09,420
Loch Ness monster you know anything that

208
00:09:15,410 --> 00:09:12,839
was remotely weird or otherworldly took

209
00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:15,420
my interest and and I started to read

210
00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:17,970
books on this kind of stuff probably

211
00:09:22,970 --> 00:09:21,570
around the age of eight or nine and I

212
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:22,980
was just naturally drawn to it not from

213
00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:26,490
personal experience but but it was just

214
00:09:30,470 --> 00:09:27,690
something that was it was kind of

215
00:09:33,470 --> 00:09:30,480
innately interesting to me there was a

216
00:09:36,110 --> 00:09:33,480
childhood friend of mine who had a UFO

217
00:09:38,870 --> 00:09:36,120
close encounter when I was seven years

218
00:09:41,900 --> 00:09:38,880
old and his reporting of that encounter

219
00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:41,910
in the plague and the playground at

220
00:09:46,940 --> 00:09:44,570
school really stuck in my memory and

221
00:09:49,010 --> 00:09:46,950
it's you know smooth me to this to this

222
00:09:52,910 --> 00:09:49,020
day and and I suppose that really did

223
00:09:54,740 --> 00:09:52,920
have a psychic impact on me and I could

224
00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:54,750
never really let go of the subject and

225
00:09:59,630 --> 00:09:56,850
then my interest in UFOs intensified in

226
00:10:01,760 --> 00:09:59,640
to my teenage years and then by that

227
00:10:03,710 --> 00:10:01,770
point had started to buy and read most

228
00:10:04,910 --> 00:10:03,720
of the major literature on the subject

229
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:04,920
and it really had become an obsession

230
00:10:11,990 --> 00:10:07,290
for me I mean I'm an obsessional

231
00:10:15,260 --> 00:10:12,000
personality and and then in my twenties

232
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:15,270
I started to really focus on film film

233
00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:16,770
studies and media and academic level and

234
00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:19,050
that became my my passion but the

235
00:10:22,370 --> 00:10:19,440
interest

236
00:10:24,650 --> 00:10:22,380
UFOs never went away and then in my

237
00:10:27,010 --> 00:10:24,660
mid-20s I finally decided to combine the

238
00:10:29,860 --> 00:10:27,020
two interests and start writing about

239
00:10:31,670 --> 00:10:29,870
UFO movies in UFO themed entertainment

240
00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:31,680
from a cultural and political

241
00:10:36,050 --> 00:10:33,630
perspective and that's eventually led to

242
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:36,060
the publication of my book do you

243
00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:38,730
remember the first film you ever saw

244
00:10:43,730 --> 00:10:41,850
that included UFOs or aliens I know this

245
00:10:47,690 --> 00:10:43,740
is probably drawing back a long time but

246
00:10:49,730 --> 00:10:47,700
that's a good question well ET the

247
00:10:52,790 --> 00:10:49,740
extra-terrestrial was 1980 I was born in

248
00:10:54,550 --> 00:10:52,800
1981 and ET was released in 1982 but I'm

249
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:54,560
pretty sure that ET was not the first

250
00:10:58,970 --> 00:10:56,970
alien film I saw in fact I wasn't even a

251
00:11:00,830 --> 00:10:58,980
fan of ET as a kid I don't think it's

252
00:11:02,810 --> 00:11:00,840
really I don't think it's really a a

253
00:11:04,730 --> 00:11:02,820
children's fell it's a strange thing to

254
00:11:06,380 --> 00:11:04,740
say but it's it's a film about children

255
00:11:08,540 --> 00:11:06,390
I would say for adults or for families

256
00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:08,550
it doesn't it's not kind of like a

257
00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:11,370
Goonies film that really appeals to it

258
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:12,930
does not but not much happens in ET

259
00:11:16,340 --> 00:11:14,490
there's not a lot of adventure you know

260
00:11:18,410 --> 00:11:16,350
it's a very quiet film it's a very

261
00:11:20,330 --> 00:11:18,420
intimate film it's a very grown-up film

262
00:11:23,060 --> 00:11:20,340
in many ways I'm dealing with adult

263
00:11:26,090 --> 00:11:23,070
themes and I wasn't the first alien film

264
00:11:27,290 --> 00:11:26,100
I saw the one of the earliest I can

265
00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:27,300
remember seeing and certainly one of my

266
00:11:33,590 --> 00:11:31,370
favorite as a child was Joe Dante's 1985

267
00:11:36,940 --> 00:11:33,600
sci-fi adventure called explorers

268
00:11:40,490 --> 00:11:36,950
starring River Phoenix and Ethan Hawke

269
00:11:44,180 --> 00:11:40,500
as young boys and they they basically

270
00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:44,190
get a alien telepathic message and they

271
00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:46,710
build a an alien spy built they build a

272
00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:48,930
spaceship out of junkyard material based

273
00:11:52,940 --> 00:11:50,730
on an alien schematic and then they go

274
00:12:02,780 --> 00:11:52,950
out into space and visit their alien

275
00:12:04,550 --> 00:12:02,790
friends I'm not going to give him that

276
00:12:06,530 --> 00:12:04,560
big until we find out exactly where this

277
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:06,540
programs are coming from and we need to

278
00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:07,610
run tests

279
00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:12,560
yes we have hundreds of serious tests it

280
00:12:26,890 --> 00:12:24,650
could take years feeling way inside we

281
00:12:34,630 --> 00:12:26,900
were flying come on didn't make some

282
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:37,190
and it was just the ultimate alien

283
00:12:41,270 --> 00:12:39,450
fantasy for me and and it inspired me to

284
00:12:42,380 --> 00:12:41,280
try and build my own my own spaceship

285
00:12:47,690 --> 00:12:42,390
which actually was it kind of like a

286
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:47,700
time machine and that was really you

287
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:49,530
know I was really fascinated by stuff

288
00:12:52,490 --> 00:12:51,120
but I that put at that age I never

289
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:52,500
really thought of myself as being an

290
00:12:58,580 --> 00:12:56,130
alien kind of not the alien not phase

291
00:13:00,770 --> 00:12:58,590
started later but I also remember you

292
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:00,780
know things like cocoon which again had

293
00:13:03,950 --> 00:13:02,610
kind of a grown-up kind of boring film

294
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:03,960
as a kid I think you appreciate a little

295
00:13:06,170 --> 00:13:05,010
bit more as you get older but it's still

296
00:13:07,850 --> 00:13:06,180
kind of boring

297
00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:07,860
batteries not included I was a fan of

298
00:13:11,620 --> 00:13:09,360
Steven Spielberg's production of

299
00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:11,630
batteries not included from 1987 you

300
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:13,710
know there were a lot of these friendly

301
00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:15,930
alien films throughout the 1980s and

302
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:17,910
that was the fad in Hollywood at the

303
00:13:22,910 --> 00:13:19,650
time and those are the films I grew up

304
00:13:26,810 --> 00:13:22,920
on one of the really powerful alien

305
00:13:29,090 --> 00:13:26,820
films I saw a reasonably engaged I was

306
00:13:33,770 --> 00:13:29,100
far too young really was James Cameron's

307
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:33,780
aliens and it terrified me and it's you

308
00:13:39,410 --> 00:13:35,610
know but I watched it every single time

309
00:13:41,780 --> 00:13:39,420
I was on TV and and he it's just it's

310
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:41,790
just just fantastic but yeah so it

311
00:13:44,930 --> 00:13:43,440
wasn't until as I say it wasn't until my

312
00:13:47,620 --> 00:13:44,940
mid-twenties that I really started to

313
00:13:50,510 --> 00:13:47,630
think right I'm gonna look into this

314
00:13:53,570 --> 00:13:50,520
exhaustively and I'm going to build a

315
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:53,580
catalog of alien films of UFO movies

316
00:13:59,420 --> 00:13:56,850
specifically and I would define what I

317
00:14:01,070 --> 00:13:59,430
refer to as a UFO movie has any film

318
00:14:03,890 --> 00:14:01,080
that taps directly into any aspect of

319
00:14:07,250 --> 00:14:03,900
UFO mythology and incorporates elements

320
00:14:09,380 --> 00:14:07,260
of UFO literature UFO discourse things

321
00:14:11,890 --> 00:14:09,390
that are based on factual events or

322
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:11,900
real-world occurrences relating to UFOs

323
00:14:17,540 --> 00:14:16,050
and you know there are there's a huge

324
00:14:20,210 --> 00:14:17,550
catalog of films out there that tap into

325
00:14:23,630 --> 00:14:20,220
this existing subculture of UFOs and

326
00:14:25,310 --> 00:14:23,640
exploit the mythology exploit the the

327
00:14:27,110 --> 00:14:25,320
cases even a lot of these films draw

328
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:27,120
from real-life cases and then they kind

329
00:14:31,820 --> 00:14:30,090
of fictionalized them and present them

330
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:31,830
as a sci-fi narratives and then it kind

331
00:14:37,070 --> 00:14:35,760
of confuses people but but that was that

332
00:14:39,830 --> 00:14:37,080
was very very interesting and I kind of

333
00:14:42,110 --> 00:14:39,840
thought well UFO movies although they're

334
00:14:44,690 --> 00:14:42,120
very entertaining and and Hollywood is

335
00:14:46,060 --> 00:14:44,700
that it is you know Hollywood is is in

336
00:14:48,910 --> 00:14:46,070
many ways kind of

337
00:14:51,370 --> 00:14:48,920
cultural fluff at the same time it

338
00:14:54,190 --> 00:14:51,380
seemed to me that the Hollywood movies

339
00:14:57,010 --> 00:14:54,200
were acting as our main frame of

340
00:14:58,630 --> 00:14:57,020
reference for alien contact for ideas

341
00:15:01,600 --> 00:14:58,640
surrounding alien contact alien

342
00:15:04,030 --> 00:15:01,610
visitation in UFOs because we don't

343
00:15:06,190 --> 00:15:04,040
really get answers from authorities on

344
00:15:08,950 --> 00:15:06,200
these issues we get silence or we get

345
00:15:11,220 --> 00:15:08,960
this information we we don't get

346
00:15:14,020 --> 00:15:11,230
information from mainstream news media

347
00:15:16,450 --> 00:15:14,030
we get sensationalized information from

348
00:15:18,220 --> 00:15:16,460
mainstream news media and so what you

349
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:18,230
have is grassroots reports filtering

350
00:15:24,220 --> 00:15:21,680
through a folk level and and forming a

351
00:15:27,070 --> 00:15:24,230
subculture and then entertainment media

352
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:27,080
taps into this exploits it and

353
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:30,530
popularizes it and that process really

354
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:32,210
fascinated me and I wanted to

355
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:34,370
deconstruct it yeah I mean I know you

356
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:37,010
mentioned a rather famous quote about

357
00:15:42,580 --> 00:15:40,010
you know Hollywood or movies fill the

358
00:15:44,590 --> 00:15:42,590
gaps in between you know our knowledge

359
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:44,600
is something of that sort I know

360
00:15:51,130 --> 00:15:47,330
ambassador dyes in it and Ken Russell

361
00:15:53,140 --> 00:15:51,140
the the the British British filmmaker he

362
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:53,150
once said that Hollywood fills the gaps

363
00:15:57,370 --> 00:15:55,040
in our knowledge of the world and that

364
00:15:58,960 --> 00:15:57,380
was a cocktail yeah I I read that quote

365
00:16:02,380 --> 00:15:58,970
he wrote it in an article that he wrote

366
00:16:05,170 --> 00:16:02,390
for the Guardian newspaper in 2008 and I

367
00:16:08,460 --> 00:16:05,180
was 27 at the time and that was when I

368
00:16:11,500 --> 00:16:08,470
was starting to form the idea of my book

369
00:16:12,970 --> 00:16:11,510
I'd already started to write about UFOs

370
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:12,980
in Hollywood by that point but I hadn't

371
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:14,690
seriously consider writing a book and

372
00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:16,970
then at that I read this article and I

373
00:16:20,410 --> 00:16:18,320
thought you know I really I really need

374
00:16:23,380 --> 00:16:20,420
to to get all this down on paper and

375
00:16:26,170 --> 00:16:23,390
that quote just really isn't it's never

376
00:16:28,630 --> 00:16:26,180
left me and I cut i cut the quote out of

377
00:16:30,910 --> 00:16:28,640
the newspaper and kept it in a file and

378
00:16:32,110 --> 00:16:30,920
I've still got it and it Hollywood fills

379
00:16:33,850 --> 00:16:32,120
the gaps in our knowledge of the world

380
00:16:36,820 --> 00:16:33,860
and they thought wow that is especially

381
00:16:38,230 --> 00:16:36,830
true when it comes to UFOs it's true of

382
00:16:40,870 --> 00:16:38,240
everything but it's especially true of

383
00:16:42,610 --> 00:16:40,880
UFOs and so you know the example I use

384
00:16:44,580 --> 00:16:42,620
is that um you know I challenge people

385
00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:44,590
to think of the sinking of the Titanic

386
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:46,190
without thinking

387
00:16:51,550 --> 00:16:47,890
almost immediately of James Cameron's

388
00:16:54,250 --> 00:16:51,560
1997 movie hey you can't separate that

389
00:16:55,780 --> 00:16:54,260
movie from the real world event because

390
00:16:57,220 --> 00:16:55,790
that movie is pretty much all we know

391
00:16:59,800 --> 00:16:57,230
the real world event unless you've gone

392
00:17:01,180 --> 00:16:59,810
to historical archives you know

393
00:17:04,829 --> 00:17:01,190
done some serious historical research

394
00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:04,839
that movie replaces the event itself in

395
00:17:11,770 --> 00:17:08,390
in our popular consciousness that's the

396
00:17:13,449 --> 00:17:11,780
power of cinema Wow and so with us if it

397
00:17:15,069 --> 00:17:13,459
can do that for a real historical event

398
00:17:17,530 --> 00:17:15,079
everyone accepts as being truthful and

399
00:17:18,429 --> 00:17:17,540
factual anyway as part of our recent

400
00:17:22,929 --> 00:17:18,439
historical memory

401
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:22,939
what can this cinematic process do for a

402
00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:26,930
subject which is sidelined ignored and

403
00:17:31,090 --> 00:17:28,910
rejected by consensus reality and by

404
00:17:32,890 --> 00:17:31,100
official culture what has been the role

405
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:32,900
that this medium has played in our

406
00:17:36,850 --> 00:17:34,730
understanding or a misunderstanding of

407
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:36,860
UFOs and so in that sense I thought wow

408
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:39,290
cinema is not peripheral to the UFO

409
00:17:42,790 --> 00:17:40,730
phenomenon it's actually central to our

410
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:42,800
understanding of it despite the sort of

411
00:17:47,230 --> 00:17:44,690
parasitic nature of Hollywood in terms

412
00:17:51,070 --> 00:17:47,240
of this this topic you also mentioned

413
00:17:53,380 --> 00:17:51,080
entertainment being used as stratagem I

414
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:53,390
mean this is a this could be a book in

415
00:17:58,720 --> 00:17:56,090
itself really just relating to UFOs but

416
00:18:00,190 --> 00:17:58,730
I kind of hone it down into into a quite

417
00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:00,200
a lengthy chapter in the book where I

418
00:18:05,260 --> 00:18:02,240
look at the idea of this Hollywood UFO

419
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:05,270
conspiracy a lot of people in the UFO

420
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:07,010
field have been very interested for a

421
00:18:12,940 --> 00:18:09,890
long time in in Hollywood's relationship

422
00:18:14,050 --> 00:18:12,950
with with three-letter agencies but very

423
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:14,060
few people have actually looked into

424
00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:15,970
this very seriously and tried to come to

425
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:19,310
solid conclusions I did some research a

426
00:18:25,180 --> 00:18:21,730
few years ago which lasted a few years

427
00:18:27,010 --> 00:18:25,190
with my friend and colleague Matthew

428
00:18:28,690 --> 00:18:27,020
Alford who's one of the world's leading

429
00:18:30,940 --> 00:18:28,700
experts on Hollywood propaganda and he

430
00:18:34,510 --> 00:18:30,950
wrote a book called real power our AEL

431
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:34,520
power in in 2010 which was a which was

432
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:36,410
looking at Hollywood's role as a

433
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:38,720
propaganda machine essentially in in the

434
00:18:44,650 --> 00:18:41,330
modern era and Matthew and I spent quite

435
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:44,660
a long time looking into well you know

436
00:18:48,940 --> 00:18:46,730
the history of Hollywood propaganda the

437
00:18:51,460 --> 00:18:48,950
nature of the the relationship past and

438
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:51,470
present between various agencies and the

439
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:53,330
entertainment industry and then we also

440
00:18:57,370 --> 00:18:55,610
took some time to look at how this

441
00:18:59,320 --> 00:18:57,380
relationship has impacted you are famed

442
00:19:01,720 --> 00:18:59,330
entertainment products from the 1950s

443
00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:01,730
through to present-day and we wrote a

444
00:19:07,870 --> 00:19:05,510
piece on that for a university journal

445
00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:07,880
and that piece was eventually extended

446
00:19:13,540 --> 00:19:10,910
by myself and adapted for my book and so

447
00:19:15,820 --> 00:19:13,550
I built on that and tried to bring it as

448
00:19:18,180 --> 00:19:15,830
further up today as possible there's a

449
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:18,190
wealth of material to to discuss

450
00:19:23,620 --> 00:19:20,450
basically the the Department of Defense

451
00:19:25,570 --> 00:19:23,630
the Pentagon in America has has had a

452
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:25,580
working relationship with Hollywood for

453
00:19:31,210 --> 00:19:28,960
many decades but the relationship was

454
00:19:33,820 --> 00:19:31,220
formalized really in the mid 1980s

455
00:19:35,770 --> 00:19:33,830
following the release of Top Gun which

456
00:19:41,710 --> 00:19:35,780
served as a recruitment campaign for the

457
00:19:42,990 --> 00:19:41,720
US Navy and boosted recruitment 500% to

458
00:19:46,690 --> 00:19:43,000
reach for something bigger

459
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:46,700
to master a more challenging world to

460
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:48,770
feel the confidence in pride of knowing

461
00:19:59,930 --> 00:19:57,260
show the world your US Navy live the

462
00:20:02,000 --> 00:19:59,940
adventure call 1-800 three to seven mate

463
00:20:03,650 --> 00:20:02,010
basically I mean you can work both ways

464
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:03,660
sometimes sometimes the military will

465
00:20:06,770 --> 00:20:05,730
approach filmmakers but usually it's the

466
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:06,780
other way around

467
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:08,930
film a call approach the military

468
00:20:12,860 --> 00:20:10,770
seeking their cooperation on a

469
00:20:14,780 --> 00:20:12,870
production in order to cut costs on that

470
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:14,790
production so if you're making a war

471
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:16,530
movie an action movie that requires

472
00:20:22,490 --> 00:20:19,770
tanks guns jets you know Express the

473
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:22,500
troops then especially before the age of

474
00:20:27,140 --> 00:20:24,810
CGI the only way to create that really

475
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:27,150
is through expensive props or to

476
00:20:31,130 --> 00:20:28,730
actually get the real stuff on screen

477
00:20:32,660 --> 00:20:31,140
with the help of the military and the

478
00:20:36,290 --> 00:20:32,670
military is only would only to willing

479
00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:36,300
to lend its toys to to Hollywood but it

480
00:20:41,450 --> 00:20:39,990
has to be mutually beneficial so the

481
00:20:43,010 --> 00:20:41,460
military the military will say look

482
00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:43,020
we'll give you our stuff if you sign a

483
00:20:48,110 --> 00:20:44,780
contract with us which enables us to

484
00:20:51,130 --> 00:20:48,120
oversee your production and we can alter

485
00:20:53,770 --> 00:20:51,140
as we see fit anything in your script

486
00:20:56,270 --> 00:20:53,780
that we deemed to be objectionable

487
00:20:59,180 --> 00:20:56,280
anything that paints the military in a

488
00:21:01,670 --> 00:20:59,190
negative light or anything that we don't

489
00:21:03,740 --> 00:21:01,680
agree with in terms of depictions of you

490
00:21:06,530 --> 00:21:03,750
know national security policy or etc etc

491
00:21:08,330 --> 00:21:06,540
they can change this and do in in

492
00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:08,340
Hollywood scripts and so what you have

493
00:21:15,620 --> 00:21:12,030
is is a this is sort of a legal open

494
00:21:17,930 --> 00:21:15,630
form of propaganda and and it's all a

495
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:17,940
okay and aboveboard but it's not really

496
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:20,730
publicized too much you know and that

497
00:21:25,910 --> 00:21:22,410
relationship has been very healthy and

498
00:21:28,190 --> 00:21:25,920
ongoing for a long time in recent years

499
00:21:30,620 --> 00:21:28,200
what you've had is filmmakers becoming

500
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:30,630
increasingly willing excuse me the

501
00:21:33,710 --> 00:21:31,890
Department of Defense becoming

502
00:21:38,060 --> 00:21:33,720
increasingly willing to work with UFO

503
00:21:39,860 --> 00:21:38,070
themed productions until the late 1990s

504
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:39,870
that was not the case there had been a

505
00:21:46,580 --> 00:21:42,570
policy dating back to the 1950s where

506
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:46,590
the US government and military were very

507
00:21:52,250 --> 00:21:49,530
reluctant you know to cooperate on any

508
00:21:54,140 --> 00:21:52,260
UFO theme productions in Hollywood and

509
00:21:56,750 --> 00:21:54,150
that was as a result of recommendations

510
00:21:58,460 --> 00:21:56,760
made by the Robertson panel in 1953 who

511
00:22:00,200 --> 00:21:58,470
suggested that UFOs be debunked in

512
00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:00,210
demystified through media channels and

513
00:22:06,260 --> 00:22:03,110
that did have an effect so so generally

514
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:06,270
right through to the late 1990s whenever

515
00:22:09,770 --> 00:22:07,650
a filmmaker

516
00:22:11,540 --> 00:22:09,780
poached a branch of the government or

517
00:22:14,210 --> 00:22:11,550
military for cooperation on a UFO theme

518
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:14,220
production the response was no we want

519
00:22:18,050 --> 00:22:15,810
to help you because UFOs don't exist and

520
00:22:21,890 --> 00:22:18,060
it contravenes our policy so so that was

521
00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:21,900
the policy but then in mid-1990s on the

522
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:23,370
first Independence Day when the film

523
00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:25,050
makers roland emmerich and Dean Devlin

524
00:22:29,180 --> 00:22:27,600
approached the Department of Defense for

525
00:22:30,890 --> 00:22:29,190
their cooperation for obvious reasons

526
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:30,900
the Department of Defense said look we

527
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:32,490
have all sorts of problems with your

528
00:22:39,770 --> 00:22:36,000
script but the the sticking points for

529
00:22:41,030 --> 00:22:39,780
us are that you include area 51 as being

530
00:22:43,250 --> 00:22:41,040
central to the plot and you also make

531
00:22:45,470 --> 00:22:43,260
reference to the Roswell incident and

532
00:22:49,610 --> 00:22:45,480
you suggest that the president is has

533
00:22:51,530 --> 00:22:49,620
been kept in the dark why the hell

534
00:22:57,660 --> 00:22:51,540
wasn't I told about this place two words

535
00:23:04,190 --> 00:23:00,740
[Music]

536
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:04,200
I don't understand where there's all

537
00:23:07,820 --> 00:23:05,850
this come from how do you get funding

538
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:07,830
for something like this you don't

539
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:09,810
actually think they spend $20,000 on a

540
00:23:14,060 --> 00:23:10,490
hammer

541
00:23:15,500 --> 00:23:14,070
$30,000 on a toilet seat that's

542
00:23:17,030 --> 00:23:15,510
obviously not the case you know these

543
00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:17,040
are this is this is what they said

544
00:23:20,450 --> 00:23:18,510
specifically in their in their script

545
00:23:22,550 --> 00:23:20,460
notes to the filmmakers and to their

546
00:23:23,630 --> 00:23:22,560
credit the filmmakers went their own way

547
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:23,640
and they said look we can't take those

548
00:23:27,050 --> 00:23:24,930
things out of the script because they're

549
00:23:28,370 --> 00:23:27,060
central to it and we're gonna we're

550
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:28,380
going to do it with CGI and that's what

551
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:30,330
they did and then as a result of that I

552
00:23:35,060 --> 00:23:33,210
am convinced as a direct result of that

553
00:23:37,010 --> 00:23:35,070
the the Department of Defense recognized

554
00:23:39,860 --> 00:23:37,020
very quickly when they saw that that

555
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:39,870
film became the most successful of 1996

556
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:41,610
and one of the most successful of the

557
00:23:46,190 --> 00:23:43,110
decade grossing over eight hundred

558
00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:46,200
million dollars they realized oh my god

559
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:47,760
we've made we've missed out on a huge

560
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:49,890
opportunity here because had we given

561
00:23:53,180 --> 00:23:51,330
them s to put our support we would have

562
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:53,190
had access to the script how do we

563
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:54,330
access to the script we could have

564
00:23:58,430 --> 00:23:55,770
shaped the narrative in a way that

565
00:24:00,680 --> 00:23:58,440
serves us we could shape we could we

566
00:24:02,930 --> 00:24:00,690
could try and steer particular beliefs

567
00:24:05,030 --> 00:24:02,940
within the UFO conspiracy community we

568
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:05,040
could you know we could better portray

569
00:24:08,930 --> 00:24:07,290
out our own history with with relation

570
00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:08,940
to UFOs we could you know we could we

571
00:24:11,690 --> 00:24:10,470
could massage it as we see fit but

572
00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:11,700
because they denied their cooperation

573
00:24:15,350 --> 00:24:13,860
they lost that opportunity now they

574
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:15,360
obviously realize this because the

575
00:24:20,810 --> 00:24:18,330
following year the Stargate TV show

576
00:24:22,550 --> 00:24:20,820
which Ann Emmerich actually directed the

577
00:24:25,970 --> 00:24:22,560
first the Star Trek at the Stargate

578
00:24:27,410 --> 00:24:25,980
movie but the but the he he wasn't

579
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:27,420
directly involved in the TV show but the

580
00:24:32,930 --> 00:24:30,840
TV show came out the year after Stargate

581
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:32,940
excuse me Independence Day yesterday

582
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:36,810
with stay with me here and so what

583
00:24:39,890 --> 00:24:38,310
happened was when they approached the

584
00:24:42,620 --> 00:24:39,900
military for their support on Stargate

585
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:42,630
TV show the military said okay we'll

586
00:24:46,790 --> 00:24:45,450
give you our full cooperation and they

587
00:24:50,540 --> 00:24:46,800
gave them access to Cheyenne Mountain

588
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:50,550
NORAD they you know they gave them their

589
00:24:56,810 --> 00:24:52,650
just total total cooperation at every

590
00:25:00,320 --> 00:24:56,820
level for ten seasons for ten years and

591
00:25:02,930 --> 00:25:00,330
that show was hugely responsible for

592
00:25:05,540 --> 00:25:02,940
shaping belief in your--in UFO

593
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:05,550
conspiracy fields when it comes to the

594
00:25:10,940 --> 00:25:07,770
supposed relationship between UF between

595
00:25:12,380 --> 00:25:10,950
between the US government and and alien

596
00:25:14,620 --> 00:25:12,390
entities and things like that they

597
00:25:16,779 --> 00:25:14,630
really tapped into existing beliefs

598
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:16,789
and then they furthered them and

599
00:25:21,220 --> 00:25:19,490
enriched them in in a couple of episodes

600
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:21,230
actually across a couple of different

601
00:25:26,380 --> 00:25:22,690
seasons of that show you had

602
00:25:28,690 --> 00:25:26,390
high-ranking military Air Force officers

603
00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:28,700
appearing as themselves cameo ring as

604
00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:30,830
themselves in those episodes appearing

605
00:25:35,620 --> 00:25:33,230
alongside aliens and stuff here and

606
00:25:37,210 --> 00:25:35,630
that's that's really remarkable

607
00:25:40,510 --> 00:25:37,220
cooperation and Richard Dean Anderson

608
00:25:44,380 --> 00:25:40,520
the actor who who's in it MacGyver yeah

609
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:44,390
he he was he was given a really you know

610
00:25:49,899 --> 00:25:47,450
a military award for his you know for

611
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:49,909
his services to well to propaganda I

612
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:53,330
guess yeah and it was invited to the

613
00:25:56,860 --> 00:25:54,650
Pentagon he met with the Joint Chiefs of

614
00:25:58,899 --> 00:25:56,870
Staff so this is an example of the very

615
00:26:01,930 --> 00:25:58,909
cozy relationship between Hollywood and

616
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:01,940
and Washington and and it continues to

617
00:26:07,450 --> 00:26:04,400
this day in fact just a couple of weeks

618
00:26:09,789 --> 00:26:07,460
ago there was a report put out outlining

619
00:26:13,659 --> 00:26:09,799
how a Senate committee in the United

620
00:26:15,399 --> 00:26:13,669
States is wanting to look into the

621
00:26:16,750 --> 00:26:15,409
nature of the relationship between the

622
00:26:18,039 --> 00:26:16,760
CIA in Hollywood because they are

623
00:26:22,029 --> 00:26:18,049
convinced that it's actually too cozy

624
00:26:24,970 --> 00:26:22,039
and that illegalities may have

625
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:24,980
transpired over the past few years on

626
00:26:29,230 --> 00:26:27,770
films like zero dark thirty for example

627
00:26:31,779 --> 00:26:29,240
made by Kathryn Bigelow who enjoys a

628
00:26:33,580 --> 00:26:31,789
very cozy relationship with the CIA the

629
00:26:35,159 --> 00:26:33,590
CIA relationship again with with

630
00:26:37,390 --> 00:26:35,169
Hollywood goes back to the early 1950s

631
00:26:39,690 --> 00:26:37,400
we could talk about it for an hour but

632
00:26:42,610 --> 00:26:39,700
suffice to say it's very deep-rooted and

633
00:26:45,340 --> 00:26:42,620
symbiotic well that's interesting yeah

634
00:26:48,430 --> 00:26:45,350
you do wonder like how how deep does it

635
00:26:51,460 --> 00:26:48,440
go and how do you how do you stop that

636
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:51,470
comfortableness between the two at this

637
00:26:57,220 --> 00:26:52,970
point it almost seems like the

638
00:26:58,450 --> 00:26:57,230
floodgates are wide open it's very

639
00:26:59,490 --> 00:26:58,460
interesting that it's finally got to the

640
00:27:02,110 --> 00:26:59,500
stage where there's a Senate committee

641
00:27:03,789 --> 00:27:02,120
investigating exactly whether or not

642
00:27:06,279 --> 00:27:03,799
that will actually have any effect I

643
00:27:09,159 --> 00:27:06,289
don't know because you know the

644
00:27:12,159 --> 00:27:09,169
relationship between the entertainment

645
00:27:15,340 --> 00:27:12,169
industry and and Washington makes sense

646
00:27:17,919 --> 00:27:15,350
certainly from Washington's perspective

647
00:27:19,450 --> 00:27:17,929
because they recognize that and have

648
00:27:22,060 --> 00:27:19,460
always recognized if you want to shape

649
00:27:23,620 --> 00:27:22,070
popular perceptions of any significant

650
00:27:25,570 --> 00:27:23,630
issue or any issue at all but especially

651
00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:25,580
of hot-button national security issues

652
00:27:30,910 --> 00:27:28,310
the best way to do that is is to

653
00:27:34,510 --> 00:27:30,920
managed to monitor to manage and to

654
00:27:36,330 --> 00:27:34,520
influence the content of mass media news

655
00:27:37,690 --> 00:27:36,340
media hard factual media but also

656
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:37,700
entertainment media and especially

657
00:27:43,930 --> 00:27:39,710
entertainment media because because it

658
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:43,940
seemed popularly as as as soft as as

659
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:45,290
something that's fluff as something

660
00:27:50,260 --> 00:27:48,170
that's harmless and not political but

661
00:27:52,060 --> 00:27:50,270
actually and that's why it's so

662
00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:52,070
effective as a propaganda tool because

663
00:27:55,030 --> 00:27:53,510
it has been exploited it has been

664
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:55,040
infiltrated and this was very well

665
00:28:00,640 --> 00:27:57,110
documented in the 1970s by Carl

666
00:28:04,060 --> 00:28:00,650
Bernstein the the famous journalist who

667
00:28:06,730 --> 00:28:04,070
who revealed that as of up to the mid

668
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:06,740
1970s the CIA had infiltrated you know

669
00:28:11,890 --> 00:28:10,130
for 400 American news outlets newspapers

670
00:28:14,770 --> 00:28:11,900
TV stations and that'll began in the

671
00:28:17,140 --> 00:28:14,780
1950s and everyone was on board you know

672
00:28:20,740 --> 00:28:17,150
and actually the former CIA operative

673
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:20,750
Robert Bayer who whose life inspired the

674
00:28:25,750 --> 00:28:22,880
George Clooney movie Syriana Clooney

675
00:28:28,740 --> 00:28:25,760
plays Bob Baer in the in the movie

676
00:28:30,610 --> 00:28:28,750
I interviewed Bob Baer in 2008 and

677
00:28:32,260 --> 00:28:30,620
asking him about the nature of the

678
00:28:34,030 --> 00:28:32,270
relationship between CIA in Hollywood

679
00:28:35,410 --> 00:28:34,040
and and he said to me I don't have the

680
00:28:37,210 --> 00:28:35,420
direct quote in front of me but it was

681
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:37,220
along the lines of all these people in

682
00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:39,410
Hollywood they go to Washington they

683
00:28:42,580 --> 00:28:41,120
hang around with senators they hang

684
00:28:44,350 --> 00:28:42,590
around with CIA directors and

685
00:28:46,150 --> 00:28:44,360
everybody's on board that's the exact

686
00:28:48,220 --> 00:28:46,160
quote and that's from and that's from a

687
00:28:51,250 --> 00:28:48,230
you know that's from a guy who was a

688
00:28:53,470 --> 00:28:51,260
very serious you know respected field

689
00:28:54,910 --> 00:28:53,480
officer in the CIA for many decades and

690
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:54,920
who actually works in Hollywood now and

691
00:28:59,260 --> 00:28:56,690
who knows very well what he's talking

692
00:29:02,580 --> 00:28:59,270
about so that's you know so when we

693
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:02,590
watch films now that seemed to be just

694
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:05,090
harmless entertainment we need to look

695
00:29:11,290 --> 00:29:08,210
deeper because nothing is what it seems

696
00:29:13,060 --> 00:29:11,300
now and and and that's especially

697
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:13,070
important when we're when we're trying

698
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:14,810
to understand the UFO phenomenon as well

699
00:29:18,670 --> 00:29:17,090
and and the influences that play behind

700
00:29:21,250 --> 00:29:18,680
the scenes in the entertainment industry

701
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:21,260
and and you know how these films are

702
00:29:24,580 --> 00:29:23,210
shaped a narrative level and if there

703
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:24,590
are any messages and if there is an

704
00:29:28,690 --> 00:29:26,480
overarching message Robbie let's talk

705
00:29:31,270 --> 00:29:28,700
about that influence I mean films in

706
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:31,280
specific one of the first theories on a

707
00:29:37,660 --> 00:29:33,650
film being directly influenced that I

708
00:29:39,940 --> 00:29:37,670
came across was a UFO event came in the

709
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:39,950
form of 1951 s the thing from another

710
00:29:43,580 --> 00:29:41,610
world which draws

711
00:29:52,820 --> 00:29:43,590
striking resemblance to a very famous

712
00:29:54,830 --> 00:29:52,830
UFO incident in 47 let me get a picture

713
00:29:56,270 --> 00:29:54,840
before you track up the whole place

714
00:29:58,370 --> 00:29:56,280
this guy got Connors going crazy

715
00:29:59,720 --> 00:29:58,380
something smell of that surface crush

716
00:30:01,580 --> 00:29:59,730
that's frozen over again and a clear

717
00:30:03,289 --> 00:30:01,590
eyes the Bovril shape apparently was

718
00:30:04,940 --> 00:30:03,299
caused by the aircraft first making

719
00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:04,950
contact with the earth now there at the

720
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:07,049
neck of the bottle sliding toward us

721
00:30:12,110 --> 00:30:09,120
informing that larger areas it came to

722
00:30:13,730 --> 00:30:12,120
rest with a engine or engines generating

723
00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:13,740
enough heat to melt that path through

724
00:30:17,390 --> 00:30:15,600
the crust then sink beneath the surface

725
00:30:21,740 --> 00:30:17,400
what could melt that much ice let's get

726
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:21,750
out and see oh it can't Hey

727
00:30:29,980 --> 00:30:26,170
it's almost yeah

728
00:30:31,850 --> 00:30:29,990
almost imperfect it is it's round

729
00:30:34,460 --> 00:30:31,860
[Music]

730
00:30:36,529 --> 00:30:34,470
we finally got one we found a flying

731
00:30:38,899 --> 00:30:36,539
saucer could you tell us a little about

732
00:30:40,610 --> 00:30:38,909
that film and just exactly what sort of

733
00:30:41,930 --> 00:30:40,620
connection may have started there well

734
00:30:43,850 --> 00:30:41,940
this is the thing from another world

735
00:30:46,039 --> 00:30:43,860
directed by Howard Hawks released in

736
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:46,049
1951 it's really the first or one of the

737
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:49,110
first UFO movies I guess you had in the

738
00:30:52,009 --> 00:30:50,640
same year the Day the Earth Stood Still

739
00:30:54,529 --> 00:30:52,019
but the thing from another world was it

740
00:30:57,259 --> 00:30:54,539
was a alien invasion movie and it did

741
00:30:58,850 --> 00:30:57,269
seem to have in hindsight certainly know

742
00:31:00,860 --> 00:30:58,860
that time people would record have

743
00:31:02,990 --> 00:31:00,870
recognized it but in hindsight parallels

744
00:31:05,419 --> 00:31:03,000
with with the Roswell incident which had

745
00:31:08,299 --> 00:31:05,429
occurred in 1947 and the movie thing

746
00:31:09,980 --> 00:31:08,309
from another world it's it concerns for

747
00:31:12,889 --> 00:31:09,990
example a saucer crash in a remote like

748
00:31:14,629 --> 00:31:12,899
in a remote location it features the

749
00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:14,639
military trying to cover it up and news

750
00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:18,049
a newsman trying to expose the truth it

751
00:31:24,139 --> 00:31:22,049
concerns the discovery of a dead alien

752
00:31:25,850 --> 00:31:24,149
which then turns out to be alive all of

753
00:31:26,930 --> 00:31:25,860
these details were later reported you

754
00:31:28,730 --> 00:31:26,940
know in relation to the Roswell incident

755
00:31:30,889 --> 00:31:28,740
and so it's caused some people to

756
00:31:33,139 --> 00:31:30,899
speculate that perhaps someone in the

757
00:31:34,370 --> 00:31:33,149
film industry may have had inside

758
00:31:36,590 --> 00:31:34,380
knowledge of the Roswell incident and

759
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:36,600
was it was tapping into that or perhaps

760
00:31:39,980 --> 00:31:38,399
trying to get a message across through

761
00:31:41,930 --> 00:31:39,990
the entertainment industry it's it's

762
00:31:44,210 --> 00:31:41,940
possible there's no proof of that the

763
00:31:46,460 --> 00:31:44,220
the defense contractor and billionaire

764
00:31:48,019 --> 00:31:46,470
Howard Hughes famously played by he

765
00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:48,029
nodded camp here in the movie again

766
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:49,289
there's another example I challenge you

767
00:31:56,330 --> 00:31:53,610
to think of Howard Hughes I think he

768
00:31:58,039 --> 00:31:56,340
owned RKO at the time he was he was the

769
00:32:00,049 --> 00:31:58,049
owner of the studio that released the

770
00:32:05,269 --> 00:32:00,059
thing and of course Howard Howard Hughes

771
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:05,279
had very deep-rooted ties to the - to

772
00:32:08,450 --> 00:32:06,510
the government through the defense

773
00:32:12,259 --> 00:32:08,460
industry so it's possible that he may

774
00:32:13,789 --> 00:32:12,269
have had some kind of knowledge of a UFO

775
00:32:16,789 --> 00:32:13,799
crash you know it's it's pure

776
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:16,799
speculation well it's the strongest link

777
00:32:20,810 --> 00:32:18,690
that there is but certainly whether or

778
00:32:22,820 --> 00:32:20,820
not there was any direct knowledge of of

779
00:32:23,810 --> 00:32:22,830
Roswell on the part of the film makers

780
00:32:26,539 --> 00:32:23,820
what is clear is that there are

781
00:32:28,580 --> 00:32:26,549
parallels between between those you know

782
00:32:30,409 --> 00:32:28,590
between the movie and the event and what

783
00:32:33,259 --> 00:32:30,419
touch on Roswell again with another film

784
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:33,269
later on but like you mentioned shortly

785
00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:35,370
after the thing from another world one

786
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:37,049
of my personal favorite movies was

787
00:32:41,180 --> 00:32:39,210
released The Day the Earth Stood Still

788
00:32:43,879 --> 00:32:41,190
starring Michael Rennie Patricia Neal

789
00:32:45,830 --> 00:32:43,889
where a UFO literally lands on the White

790
00:32:47,899 --> 00:32:45,840
House lawn ladies and gentlemen

791
00:32:49,820 --> 00:32:47,909
mr. Pearson we bring you this special

792
00:32:51,860 --> 00:32:49,830
radio television broadcast in order to

793
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:51,870
give you the very latest information on

794
00:32:57,500 --> 00:32:54,690
an amazing phenomenon the arrival of a

795
00:32:59,720 --> 00:32:57,510
space ship in Washington the Army has

796
00:33:01,970 --> 00:32:59,730
taken every precaution to meet any

797
00:33:03,850 --> 00:33:01,980
emergency which may develop just a

798
00:33:10,610 --> 00:33:03,860
minute ladies and gentlemen I think

799
00:33:13,399 --> 00:33:10,620
something is happening that moment that

800
00:33:17,690 --> 00:33:13,409
the iconic cinematic moment is is where

801
00:33:19,010 --> 00:33:17,700
pop culture now you know the phrase

802
00:33:21,409 --> 00:33:19,020
why don't they land on the White House

803
00:33:22,220 --> 00:33:21,419
lawn that we have that movie to thank

804
00:33:26,330 --> 00:33:22,230
for that

805
00:33:29,149 --> 00:33:26,340
that's the power of cinema that you know

806
00:33:31,399 --> 00:33:29,159
in that instant in that iconic scene in

807
00:33:33,740 --> 00:33:31,409
that iconic movie we were presented with

808
00:33:36,289 --> 00:33:33,750
with a scenario which has shaped our

809
00:33:37,940 --> 00:33:36,299
perceptions or our expectations of how

810
00:33:38,539 --> 00:33:37,950
the phenomenon should manifest all these

811
00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:38,549
years later

812
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:39,990
why don't they land on the White House

813
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:44,250
lawn well because it's not a movie no

814
00:33:49,399 --> 00:33:46,320
not at all that that proves the point

815
00:33:51,289 --> 00:33:49,409
that your quote-unquote speculation and

816
00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:51,299
the facts you've brought forth in this

817
00:33:55,730 --> 00:33:53,460
book are extremely powerful in prevalent

818
00:33:58,190 --> 00:33:55,740
and there's actually little debate as to

819
00:34:00,230 --> 00:33:58,200
the power that the media has on pop

820
00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:00,240
culture in terms of this movie the

821
00:34:07,010 --> 00:34:03,600
content sort of paralleled the 1952

822
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:07,020
Washington DC UFO flap you mentioned in

823
00:34:10,940 --> 00:34:08,970
the book as well and the director of the

824
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:10,950
film Robert Weiss head yet some

825
00:34:14,629 --> 00:34:12,810
interesting connections during filming

826
00:34:16,609 --> 00:34:14,639
could you tell us a little about Weiss

827
00:34:20,530 --> 00:34:16,619
and perhaps some of the ties he may have

828
00:34:23,240 --> 00:34:20,540
had to either intelligence agencies or

829
00:34:26,659 --> 00:34:23,250
UFO investigations in general Robert

830
00:34:29,089 --> 00:34:26,669
Wise was a UFO believer but he wasn't

831
00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:29,099
always a UFO believer he became a UFO

832
00:34:34,700 --> 00:34:31,730
believer through his experiences of

833
00:34:38,930 --> 00:34:34,710
making The Day the Earth Stood Still in

834
00:34:41,629 --> 00:34:38,940
the early 1950s this was related by the

835
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:41,639
filmmaker paul davids who made the 1994

836
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:43,200
movie roswell starring Kyle MacLachlan

837
00:34:47,899 --> 00:34:45,570
Mangena paul davids and the producer and

838
00:34:50,839 --> 00:34:47,909
writer of that movie was friends with

839
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:50,849
Robert Wise in his later years and over

840
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:53,280
lunch one day Robert Wise was telling

841
00:34:58,220 --> 00:34:55,679
paul davids about the production of the

842
00:34:59,540 --> 00:34:58,230
daily so still and said you know during

843
00:35:02,900 --> 00:34:59,550
production we had

844
00:35:05,210 --> 00:35:02,910
a number of men from Washington

845
00:35:08,420 --> 00:35:05,220
scientists and engineers from Washington

846
00:35:10,490 --> 00:35:08,430
come on to the set and you know drip

847
00:35:13,850 --> 00:35:10,500
drip drip little bits of information

848
00:35:15,260 --> 00:35:13,860
about UFOs and he found it and it was

849
00:35:16,370 --> 00:35:15,270
through these conversations and

850
00:35:17,870 --> 00:35:16,380
interactions that he had with these

851
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:17,880
people from Washington he came to

852
00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:19,290
believe that actually this was something

853
00:35:22,460 --> 00:35:20,880
that was treated very seriously in the

854
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:22,470
corridors of power and therefore there

855
00:35:27,230 --> 00:35:24,690
must be something to it so that was that

856
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:27,240
was how he came to be a believer really

857
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:29,010
but he was kind of agnostic at the time

858
00:35:35,540 --> 00:35:32,490
but certainly that film is is I mean

859
00:35:38,170 --> 00:35:35,550
it's its impact was huge the remake was

860
00:35:40,790 --> 00:35:38,180
was probably unnecessary I would say

861
00:35:44,510 --> 00:35:40,800
that's true but at least Keanu Reeves

862
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:44,520
got paid so who supposedly donates a lot

863
00:35:52,970 --> 00:35:49,890
of his profits to its will take it

864
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:52,980
another film with some pretty close ties

865
00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:56,010
to the UFO lore came in the form of 1953

866
00:36:00,440 --> 00:35:58,170
s invaders from Mars again one of my

867
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:00,450
favorites and again didn't care much for

868
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:02,970
the remake but this is a film in which

869
00:36:08,180 --> 00:36:04,890
an alien race are planning sort of a

870
00:36:10,490 --> 00:36:08,190
silent invasion as it were on earth and

871
00:36:15,230 --> 00:36:10,500
their plan is being thwarted by a young

872
00:36:19,829 --> 00:36:18,870
invaders from Mars he saw the land from

873
00:36:22,620 --> 00:36:19,839
outer space

874
00:36:23,370 --> 00:36:22,630
he saw them capture innocent people only

875
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:23,380
to destroy

876
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:26,810
[Music]

877
00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:32,490
father turned against Sun people changed

878
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:37,920
into strained weird animals a general of

879
00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:39,930
the army becomes a saboteur

880
00:36:56,930 --> 00:36:52,060
[Music]

881
00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:56,940
instruments of destruction this film

882
00:37:00,440 --> 00:36:58,800
mentions many actual UFO cases

883
00:37:03,650 --> 00:37:00,450
throughout and could you tell us a bit

884
00:37:05,380 --> 00:37:03,660
about the UFO cases and why you believe

885
00:37:08,750 --> 00:37:05,390
these scenes had been purposefully

886
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:08,760
inserted in a later cut of the film but

887
00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:11,010
not originally the American version well

888
00:37:14,450 --> 00:37:12,480
this is a case study that I have in my

889
00:37:17,060 --> 00:37:14,460
book I don't really I don't really come

890
00:37:18,530 --> 00:37:17,070
down one way or another on this it's

891
00:37:19,790 --> 00:37:18,540
just something that I find interesting I

892
00:37:21,770 --> 00:37:19,800
find it impossible to draw a conclusion

893
00:37:24,050 --> 00:37:21,780
on this but it's just something I

894
00:37:26,420 --> 00:37:24,060
presented out of interest really because

895
00:37:28,670 --> 00:37:26,430
it is very curious so the film was

896
00:37:31,130 --> 00:37:28,680
released in 1953 invaders from Mars

897
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:31,140
and its plot first of all as you say

898
00:37:35,270 --> 00:37:33,570
does I mean it's very youthful logical

899
00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:35,280
and it actually it seemed to anticipate

900
00:37:40,370 --> 00:37:37,920
the modern abduction phenomenon by

901
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:40,380
several decades in its fine details got

902
00:37:46,910 --> 00:37:44,640
you've got aliens with big eyes landing

903
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:46,920
and sort of silently infiltrating a town

904
00:37:51,770 --> 00:37:48,960
but they they abduct people basically

905
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:51,780
and they insert implants into the back

906
00:37:57,470 --> 00:37:54,240
of people's necks as people report in in

907
00:37:59,420 --> 00:37:57,480
in in modern abduction accounts they

908
00:38:01,430 --> 00:37:59,430
there's mind control in there as well

909
00:38:04,580 --> 00:38:01,440
again which is frequently reported and

910
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:04,590
what you have it in the film is is one

911
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:06,450
of the characters is a heroic astronomer

912
00:38:12,500 --> 00:38:08,490
that was a common common character in

913
00:38:16,130 --> 00:38:12,510
the 1950s sci-fi movies and in it he

914
00:38:17,690 --> 00:38:16,140
this astronomer is speculating that the

915
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:17,700
aliens are Martians they come from Mars

916
00:38:21,860 --> 00:38:19,890
and this is their agenda but there's a

917
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:21,870
sequence quite a lengthy sequel eight

918
00:38:25,790 --> 00:38:23,970
minutes long which is actually not in

919
00:38:28,940 --> 00:38:25,800
the theatrical release but which was

920
00:38:30,610 --> 00:38:28,950
inserted into later European releases so

921
00:38:33,470 --> 00:38:30,620
the fact that it was filmed at all

922
00:38:35,090 --> 00:38:33,480
raises questions it was filmed later it

923
00:38:37,790 --> 00:38:35,100
wasn't filmed at the time it was filmed

924
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:37,800
after the fact and then inserted into

925
00:38:40,940 --> 00:38:39,450
these later releases so someone had

926
00:38:44,270 --> 00:38:40,950
obviously made the decision to film this

927
00:38:45,620 --> 00:38:44,280
to go to fit expense of you know getting

928
00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:45,630
the sets and props again and getting the

929
00:38:49,190 --> 00:38:47,520
actors again and everything and writing

930
00:38:51,140 --> 00:38:49,200
writing the dialogue and and filming it

931
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:51,150
and inserting it it's just really

932
00:38:55,010 --> 00:38:52,290
strange because it has absolutely

933
00:38:56,510 --> 00:38:55,020
nothing at all to the film dramatically

934
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:56,520
in fact it brings the film to a

935
00:38:58,790 --> 00:38:57,690
standstill for eight

936
00:39:00,830 --> 00:38:58,800
minutes and what you've got is

937
00:39:02,570 --> 00:39:00,840
essentially a monologue by it's almost

938
00:39:04,790 --> 00:39:02,580
like a public service announcement by

939
00:39:09,590 --> 00:39:04,800
this character of the astronomer in the

940
00:39:13,370 --> 00:39:09,600
movie and he's presenting factual UFO

941
00:39:16,610 --> 00:39:13,380
information to the little boy in the

942
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:16,620
movie and he's saying you know the Air

943
00:39:20,330 --> 00:39:18,330
Force there's been investigating this

944
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:20,340
for a number of years with their project

945
00:39:23,780 --> 00:39:22,170
saucer which is the popular name for

946
00:39:25,580 --> 00:39:23,790
project sign at the time which was the

947
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:25,590
Air Force's first UFO investigations

948
00:39:28,190 --> 00:39:26,970
project the project saucer have been

949
00:39:29,390 --> 00:39:28,200
investigating us for years they know

950
00:39:31,130 --> 00:39:29,400
what's going on they know were being

951
00:39:33,290 --> 00:39:31,140
visited by Martians and they've actually

952
00:39:35,510 --> 00:39:33,300
and here he just happens to have in his

953
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:35,520
in his cabinet pulls it open and he's

954
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:37,410
got all of these scale models of flying

955
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:41,370
saucers the Air Force knows to exist and

956
00:39:44,780 --> 00:39:43,260
his catalog this is like you know this

957
00:39:46,100 --> 00:39:44,790
is this is such an assertion this is

958
00:39:47,780 --> 00:39:46,110
this this is this model and this was

959
00:39:49,250 --> 00:39:47,790
seen over here and this was and then he

960
00:39:51,590 --> 00:39:49,260
and then he opens up a file that he's

961
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:51,600
got of newspaper clippings with real UFO

962
00:39:56,810 --> 00:39:53,310
reports in them in real photographs of

963
00:39:58,760 --> 00:39:56,820
real UFOs famous UFO accounts encounters

964
00:40:01,280 --> 00:39:58,770
and sightings such as the Lubbock lights

965
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:01,290
over Texas so what you've got that's one

966
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:02,850
of the first instances of direct

967
00:40:06,770 --> 00:40:04,530
blurring of factual information

968
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:06,780
factually illogical information and

969
00:40:10,310 --> 00:40:08,730
fantasy within it within a science

970
00:40:11,420 --> 00:40:10,320
fiction film but again only certain

971
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:11,430
people saw it because it was filmed

972
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:12,810
after the fact and then inserted into

973
00:40:17,300 --> 00:40:15,570
later releases so III have no

974
00:40:19,460 --> 00:40:17,310
conclusions to draw on that other than

975
00:40:21,890 --> 00:40:19,470
the fact that it's really weird it is it

976
00:40:23,330 --> 00:40:21,900
is very weird and also and the other

977
00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:23,340
thing is of course is that the film is

978
00:40:28,250 --> 00:40:26,310
1953 and 1953 is the film that we can

979
00:40:31,490 --> 00:40:28,260
really trace is the year that we can

980
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:31,500
trace back to where the CIA really

981
00:40:35,390 --> 00:40:33,570
really started to to get its hooks into

982
00:40:38,210 --> 00:40:35,400
Hollywood and that was the year there

983
00:40:41,630 --> 00:40:38,220
was some infiltration earlier in the

984
00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:41,640
1950s in 1951 but 1953 is really where

985
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:43,440
it started to kick off and at that point

986
00:40:48,380 --> 00:40:45,810
you had wide scale infiltration of the

987
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:48,390
entertainment industry by the CIA on a

988
00:40:52,370 --> 00:40:50,730
regular basis so it so doesn't there's

989
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:52,380
no concrete conclusions to be drawn this

990
00:40:56,630 --> 00:40:53,850
no smoking gun there but it's just a

991
00:40:59,180 --> 00:40:56,640
very interesting case I suppose yeah

992
00:41:03,650 --> 00:40:59,190
perhaps it was you know little test run

993
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:03,660
on partial disclosures who knows and I

994
00:41:07,220 --> 00:41:05,490
know there are several documentaries

995
00:41:11,180 --> 00:41:07,230
that you speak about throughout the book

996
00:41:13,430 --> 00:41:11,190
as well where some UFO footage or photo

997
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:13,440
were inserted at certain points

998
00:41:16,609 --> 00:41:14,730
throughout that were said to come

999
00:41:19,339 --> 00:41:16,619
directly from the government or from

1000
00:41:21,140 --> 00:41:19,349
project sign project grudge project

1001
00:41:23,300 --> 00:41:21,150
Bluebook so that's very interesting as

1002
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:23,310
well we could talk about those forever

1003
00:41:27,530 --> 00:41:25,680
but I know you cover them very well in

1004
00:41:30,410 --> 00:41:27,540
the book I wanted to bring up one of the

1005
00:41:32,660 --> 00:41:30,420
most notorious conflicts between ufology

1006
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:32,670
in Hollywood came in the form of the

1007
00:41:37,250 --> 00:41:34,410
work of Donald Keough who we all know

1008
00:41:39,050 --> 00:41:37,260
was a very prominent UFO researcher and

1009
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:39,060
did a lot with his time before that

1010
00:41:42,740 --> 00:41:40,770
could you sort of guide us through his

1011
00:41:45,170 --> 00:41:42,750
connection with the film earth vs. the

1012
00:41:49,069 --> 00:41:45,180
flying saucers in relation to his his

1013
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:49,079
previously published book yeah I mean so

1014
00:41:56,170 --> 00:41:52,650
this was a 1956 movie and it was based

1015
00:41:59,599 --> 00:41:56,180
on Kehoe's earlier book believe it was

1016
00:42:01,910 --> 00:41:59,609
1953 or four Kehoe's non-fiction book

1017
00:42:03,710 --> 00:42:01,920
flying saucers from outer space which

1018
00:42:06,140 --> 00:42:03,720
itself sounds like a pulpy movie but was

1019
00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:06,150
actually a as I say as a serious book

1020
00:42:10,819 --> 00:42:08,910
written by Kehoe looking at the the the

1021
00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:10,829
flowing source of phenomenon and so I've

1022
00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:12,390
been published by Kehoe and then a

1023
00:42:16,220 --> 00:42:14,310
couple years later some producers in

1024
00:42:18,589 --> 00:42:16,230
Hollywood decided to approach Kehoe

1025
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:18,599
seeking the rights to this book because

1026
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:19,710
they told him that they were going to be

1027
00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:22,410
making a serious documentary looking at

1028
00:42:26,359 --> 00:42:24,089
at the UFO phenomena and they wanted to

1029
00:42:29,809 --> 00:42:26,369
use his source material and so he was

1030
00:42:32,420 --> 00:42:29,819
very skeptical Kehoe and he initially

1031
00:42:34,370 --> 00:42:32,430
denied them the rights but eventually he

1032
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:34,380
he agreed and handed the rights over to

1033
00:42:38,450 --> 00:42:36,450
his book and paid for the rights and

1034
00:42:39,950 --> 00:42:38,460
it's needless to say the result was not

1035
00:42:42,140 --> 00:42:39,960
a serious documentary but was the

1036
00:42:45,109 --> 00:42:42,150
schlocky b-movie earth vs. the flying

1037
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:45,119
saucers which really very little

1038
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:46,650
resemblance to his source material and

1039
00:42:50,510 --> 00:42:48,480
the reserve but what happened was is

1040
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:50,520
that Kehoe's name appeared in the

1041
00:42:55,579 --> 00:42:52,290
credits you know so he was directly

1042
00:42:58,339 --> 00:42:55,589
associated with this outlandish science

1043
00:42:59,630 --> 00:42:58,349
fiction movie and therefore tarred it

1044
00:43:02,809 --> 00:42:59,640
hard as a result you know his reputation

1045
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:02,819
was was solid and and he fought to have

1046
00:43:06,050 --> 00:43:04,290
his name removed from the credits but

1047
00:43:07,460 --> 00:43:06,060
without success and so to this day you

1048
00:43:09,740 --> 00:43:07,470
can see Q his name in the credits of

1049
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:09,750
this B movie and you know it raises the

1050
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:11,730
question was this was this an

1051
00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:15,810
intelligence operation I think we can

1052
00:43:20,359 --> 00:43:17,250
use that I don't think it the operation

1053
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:20,369
really applies but but but it does it

1054
00:43:23,630 --> 00:43:21,690
does raise the question if there was

1055
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:23,640
intelligence implements in here because

1056
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:24,690
Kehoe at the time

1057
00:43:29,150 --> 00:43:26,730
let's not forget was the number one

1058
00:43:31,220 --> 00:43:29,160
thorn in the side of the US government

1059
00:43:33,559 --> 00:43:31,230
where it came to UFOs he was it was

1060
00:43:35,089 --> 00:43:33,569
fiercely advocating UFO disclosure he

1061
00:43:37,730 --> 00:43:35,099
didn't use those term he didn't use that

1062
00:43:39,140 --> 00:43:37,740
term really but he wanted an NT or a

1063
00:43:41,660 --> 00:43:39,150
secret he wanted the books to be opened

1064
00:43:42,770 --> 00:43:41,670
on UFOs and he said you know he was very

1065
00:43:46,190 --> 00:43:42,780
vocal about the fact that there was a

1066
00:43:49,550 --> 00:43:46,200
big cover-up and so and Kehoe was a

1067
00:43:52,220 --> 00:43:49,560
serious individual he had respect and he

1068
00:43:54,170 --> 00:43:52,230
so this was the time so again the

1069
00:43:55,849 --> 00:43:54,180
question I suppose is did someone within

1070
00:43:57,559 --> 00:43:55,859
the intelligence community seek to

1071
00:44:01,460 --> 00:43:57,569
exploit exploit this relationship with

1072
00:44:03,020 --> 00:44:01,470
Hollywood and and basically sucker Kehoe

1073
00:44:04,910 --> 00:44:03,030
into being associated with with

1074
00:44:07,010 --> 00:44:04,920
something very very silly and thereby

1075
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:07,020
ruin his reputation like you said it is

1076
00:44:14,420 --> 00:44:10,250
it does sort of sound like a personality

1077
00:44:16,490 --> 00:44:14,430
attack it were perhaps this person who

1078
00:44:18,349 --> 00:44:16,500
was so prominent in the UFO field they

1079
00:44:21,319 --> 00:44:18,359
wanted to sort of dumb him down make him

1080
00:44:23,530 --> 00:44:21,329
look bad he eventually did that himself

1081
00:44:27,170 --> 00:44:23,540
for himself really as this time went on

1082
00:44:29,569 --> 00:44:27,180
but but in the 50s you know certainly

1083
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:29,579
had a lot more credibility yes one

1084
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:31,890
wonders why they would even ask his

1085
00:44:37,579 --> 00:44:34,050
permission to create a movie that had

1086
00:44:39,109 --> 00:44:37,589
almost I mean to do with us book and

1087
00:44:41,450 --> 00:44:39,119
like put his name on it

1088
00:44:43,010 --> 00:44:41,460
you know exactly oh yeah yeah a lot of

1089
00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:43,020
things could be drawn from that we'll

1090
00:44:49,609 --> 00:44:45,569
probably never know but Robby I wanted

1091
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:49,619
to fast forward a little bit to 1993 one

1092
00:44:56,569 --> 00:44:53,130
of the most famous abduction films of

1093
00:44:58,490 --> 00:44:56,579
all time was fire in the sky Oh does it

1094
00:45:01,880 --> 00:44:58,500
think

1095
00:45:05,590 --> 00:45:01,890
what makes it move

1096
00:45:08,620 --> 00:45:05,600
why does it breathe

1097
00:45:14,350 --> 00:45:08,630
questions anyone would ask about a man

1098
00:45:23,670 --> 00:45:19,310
so for five days man was borrowed

1099
00:45:26,830 --> 00:45:23,680
[Music]

1100
00:45:35,590 --> 00:45:26,840
the story that Travis Walton and five

1101
00:45:44,350 --> 00:45:35,600
other witnesses told famous case of

1102
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:44,360
abduction written by Tracy Torme based

1103
00:45:49,420 --> 00:45:46,490
on the accounts of Travis Walton this

1104
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:49,430
film scared the hell out of me when I

1105
00:45:53,290 --> 00:45:51,410
was younger I don't know about you hey

1106
00:45:55,090 --> 00:45:53,300
guys I have to interrupt this week's

1107
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:55,100
interview for just a moment to remind

1108
00:45:58,870 --> 00:45:56,810
you once again that somewhere in the

1109
00:46:00,850 --> 00:45:58,880
skies is brought to you by the amazing

1110
00:46:02,860 --> 00:46:00,860
folks over at hellofresh

1111
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:02,870
next time you're listening to the show

1112
00:46:06,730 --> 00:46:04,850
while making your delicious healthy

1113
00:46:08,530 --> 00:46:06,740
hellofresh meal be sure to tell a friend

1114
00:46:11,380 --> 00:46:08,540
about the amazing offer we're currently

1115
00:46:13,780 --> 00:46:11,390
giving away by using the promo code some

1116
00:46:16,870 --> 00:46:13,790
where 50 new hellofresh members will

1117
00:46:18,970 --> 00:46:16,880
receive 50% off the first box and trust

1118
00:46:21,580 --> 00:46:18,980
me guys I tried three of their amazing

1119
00:46:25,030 --> 00:46:21,590
vegetarian dinners and I was instantly

1120
00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:25,040
hooked it's fast it's easy and in under

1121
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:27,110
a half-hour you have a meal the whole

1122
00:46:32,890 --> 00:46:29,510
family will enjoy consider hellofresh

1123
00:46:35,770 --> 00:46:32,900
today by visiting hellofresh CA and

1124
00:46:38,170 --> 00:46:35,780
again using the promo code somewhere 50

1125
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:38,180
courtesy of your friends at the antica

1126
00:46:45,130 --> 00:46:40,970
podcast network and hellofresh and now

1127
00:46:50,500 --> 00:46:47,020
with good reason it still has one of the

1128
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:50,510
most horrifying interpretations of alien

1129
00:46:56,980 --> 00:46:52,850
abduction ever i'd say ever conveyed on

1130
00:46:59,410 --> 00:46:56,990
film yeah I'd say so yeah but for me it

1131
00:47:00,970 --> 00:46:59,420
was it was a bumpy road getting the film

1132
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:00,980
made and the final product wasn't

1133
00:47:07,030 --> 00:47:04,490
exactly what he or Travis Walton had

1134
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:07,040
hoped for in terms of authenticity he

1135
00:47:10,810 --> 00:47:08,330
tells us a little bit more about this

1136
00:47:13,860 --> 00:47:10,820
entire drama that ensued with this film

1137
00:47:17,830 --> 00:47:13,870
well of course of course Travis Waltons

1138
00:47:20,140 --> 00:47:17,840
1975 abduction was instantly huge when

1139
00:47:21,730 --> 00:47:20,150
it was reported and it remains I guess

1140
00:47:23,950 --> 00:47:21,740
along with Betty and Barney Hill the

1141
00:47:26,290 --> 00:47:23,960
most famous abduction account on record

1142
00:47:28,540 --> 00:47:26,300
and very unusual as well for what he

1143
00:47:31,090 --> 00:47:28,550
reported because he was really one of

1144
00:47:33,790 --> 00:47:31,100
the first people to report these these

1145
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:33,800
now iconic kind of archetypal alien

1146
00:47:37,630 --> 00:47:34,970
greys a

1147
00:47:40,980 --> 00:47:37,640
side these less frequently reported

1148
00:47:43,420 --> 00:47:40,990
Nordic human-looking alien beings and

1149
00:47:47,290 --> 00:47:43,430
you know so this was this was kind of

1150
00:47:49,810 --> 00:47:47,300
quite confusing to UFO researchers and

1151
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:49,820
remains I suppose but this was a film

1152
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:52,250
that captured the National media's

1153
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:54,170
attention an international media as well

1154
00:47:59,050 --> 00:47:56,570
at the time and it you know it kinda

1155
00:48:01,450 --> 00:47:59,060
ruined the lives of everyone who was

1156
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:01,460
involved in it he had a huge

1157
00:48:06,850 --> 00:48:03,680
psychological impact on everyone

1158
00:48:08,860 --> 00:48:06,860
as these abduction experiences often do

1159
00:48:12,220 --> 00:48:08,870
but it wasn't until several years later

1160
00:48:14,380 --> 00:48:12,230
that Hollywood tried to to do anything

1161
00:48:16,450 --> 00:48:14,390
with this story and I know that Travis

1162
00:48:17,980 --> 00:48:16,460
had been approached a couple of times by

1163
00:48:20,260 --> 00:48:17,990
various people in in the industry

1164
00:48:23,500 --> 00:48:20,270
seeking to adapt his story for the big

1165
00:48:26,020 --> 00:48:23,510
screen he'd never got a good feeling

1166
00:48:28,750 --> 00:48:26,030
from those people and what they wanted

1167
00:48:30,940 --> 00:48:28,760
to do with it Tracy Torme was a young

1168
00:48:33,670 --> 00:48:30,950
writer at the time who was working on

1169
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:33,680
the Star Trek The Next Generation TV

1170
00:48:43,330 --> 00:48:37,570
show and he was the son of Mel Torme the

1171
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:43,340
famous jazz singer and and he was he and

1172
00:48:47,370 --> 00:48:44,810
Tracy had become very good friends with

1173
00:48:50,980 --> 00:48:47,380
Gene Roddenberry on Star Trek and and

1174
00:48:56,740 --> 00:48:50,990
was very interested in UFOs as a factual

1175
00:48:59,290 --> 00:48:56,750
phenomenon and he had in 1991 or two

1176
00:49:02,710 --> 00:48:59,300
basically finished work on his

1177
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:02,720
miniseries intruders which was again one

1178
00:49:05,710 --> 00:49:03,890
of Hollywood's first serious

1179
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:05,720
explorations of the abduction phenomenon

1180
00:49:11,410 --> 00:49:08,810
as reported by experiences and and Tommy

1181
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:11,420
was fascinated by this stuff and he

1182
00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:14,720
wanted to make a movie like an actual

1183
00:49:19,990 --> 00:49:16,910
theatrical release exploring a

1184
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:20,000
compelling case and so he went through

1185
00:49:23,650 --> 00:49:22,130
the books and he he went back to Travis

1186
00:49:25,060 --> 00:49:23,660
Waltons case and he said you know this

1187
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:25,070
he said to himself this is this is

1188
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:27,770
fantastic and but I got to find out if

1189
00:49:31,330 --> 00:49:29,330
it's true like I got to find out if I

1190
00:49:32,470 --> 00:49:31,340
believe Travis Walton do I believe his

1191
00:49:35,050 --> 00:49:32,480
story and the only way I can know that

1192
00:49:36,370 --> 00:49:35,060
is if I go and meet him so he he rang up

1193
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:36,380
Travis Walton he managed to get his

1194
00:49:42,220 --> 00:49:39,290
phone number and a day that he called

1195
00:49:44,770 --> 00:49:42,230
Travis out of the blue was literally the

1196
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:44,780
day the Travis Walton had taken his

1197
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:47,210
number his phone number out of the X

1198
00:49:50,540 --> 00:49:48,450
directory he

1199
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:50,550
for the past decade had been publicly

1200
00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:53,040
unreachable and in the very day that he

1201
00:49:57,050 --> 00:49:55,710
puts it back into the public yeah he

1202
00:49:58,700 --> 00:49:57,060
gets he gets the phone call from Tracy

1203
00:50:02,030 --> 00:49:58,710
Torme saying hey I want to make a movie

1204
00:50:04,010 --> 00:50:02,040
and so Travis says you know I you know I

1205
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:04,020
gotta be honest um skeptical of

1206
00:50:11,060 --> 00:50:07,530
Hollywood Hollywood folks and and very

1207
00:50:12,590 --> 00:50:11,070
suspicious and Tracy Tom I said let me

1208
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:12,600
come out and meet you and we'll spend

1209
00:50:15,710 --> 00:50:13,770
some time together and then that's what

1210
00:50:18,530 --> 00:50:15,720
they did and then he went out there a

1211
00:50:21,260 --> 00:50:18,540
number of times to Phoenix - excuse me -

1212
00:50:23,090 --> 00:50:21,270
snowflake Arizona and and they spent

1213
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:23,100
time together over the next what it

1214
00:50:26,990 --> 00:50:24,810
would turn out to be several years and

1215
00:50:28,250 --> 00:50:27,000
from the time of their first meeting to

1216
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:28,260
the time that the movie actually got

1217
00:50:32,110 --> 00:50:29,910
released was six and a half years and

1218
00:50:35,300 --> 00:50:32,120
that was because they had an uphill

1219
00:50:38,030 --> 00:50:35,310
struggle with the with the studio's and

1220
00:50:40,340 --> 00:50:38,040
with the with the bosses because at the

1221
00:50:42,530 --> 00:50:40,350
time in the early 1990s abduction was

1222
00:50:44,060 --> 00:50:42,540
was a really hard sell it hadn't really

1223
00:50:46,820 --> 00:50:44,070
broken through into the popular

1224
00:50:49,100 --> 00:50:46,830
consciousness out of the subculture of

1225
00:50:51,290 --> 00:50:49,110
ufology it was something that was being

1226
00:50:53,810 --> 00:50:51,300
explored within within within UFO

1227
00:50:56,450 --> 00:50:53,820
research but it hadn't really made an

1228
00:50:59,750 --> 00:50:56,460
impact outside of that because Hollywood

1229
00:51:03,320 --> 00:50:59,760
likes spectacle Hollywood likes you know

1230
00:51:04,970 --> 00:51:03,330
kind of clear-cut resolutions and anyone

1231
00:51:06,950 --> 00:51:04,980
who knows anything about the abduction

1232
00:51:10,190 --> 00:51:06,960
phenomenon knows that it doesn't always

1233
00:51:12,110 --> 00:51:10,200
play like that and in fact I don't think

1234
00:51:14,450 --> 00:51:12,120
I've ever met an experienced so who's

1235
00:51:16,820 --> 00:51:14,460
had a resolution to their experiences

1236
00:51:19,670 --> 00:51:16,830
and so you know these things are ongoing

1237
00:51:21,260 --> 00:51:19,680
and they kind of shatter who you are and

1238
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:21,270
you just spend the rest of your life

1239
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:23,370
picking up the pieces in one way or

1240
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:25,290
another and that's not that doesn't make

1241
00:51:28,910 --> 00:51:27,570
for a very good ending and so that was

1242
00:51:29,930 --> 00:51:28,920
something that Hollywood always had a

1243
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:29,940
problem with when it came to these

1244
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:31,680
abduction accounts but also again

1245
00:51:35,540 --> 00:51:33,330
there's no there's no explosions there's

1246
00:51:37,310 --> 00:51:35,550
no invasions it's just some kind of a

1247
00:51:39,860 --> 00:51:37,320
weird phenomenon that kind of

1248
00:51:41,690 --> 00:51:39,870
infiltrates your life and maybe takes

1249
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:41,700
you somewhere physically or psychically

1250
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:44,370
and does things that we we don't really

1251
00:51:47,630 --> 00:51:45,690
understand their agendas and why they're

1252
00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:47,640
doing things it's just so he didn't

1253
00:51:51,130 --> 00:51:49,680
really play well with Hollywood and so

1254
00:51:53,630 --> 00:51:51,140
as I say it was a hard sell and

1255
00:51:55,700 --> 00:51:53,640
eventually they they agreed on a script

1256
00:51:56,870 --> 00:51:55,710
and and Tracy told me managed to get

1257
00:51:59,540 --> 00:51:56,880
scooped through to Paramount and

1258
00:52:01,070 --> 00:51:59,550
paramount released the film or about to

1259
00:52:03,500 --> 00:52:01,080
release the film where

1260
00:52:06,140 --> 00:52:03,510
one of the bigwigs at Paramount just by

1261
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:06,150
chance happen to see one night whilst

1262
00:52:10,460 --> 00:52:07,440
watching the television he happened to

1263
00:52:14,570 --> 00:52:10,470
see Tracy Torres aforementioned

1264
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:14,580
intruders mini-series on TV and and what

1265
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:17,610
he saw was he's big eyed grey aliens

1266
00:52:22,910 --> 00:52:20,610
performing experiments on you know on

1267
00:52:24,860 --> 00:52:22,920
someone in a spaceship and those same

1268
00:52:27,350 --> 00:52:24,870
scenes or similar scenes appear of

1269
00:52:28,430 --> 00:52:27,360
course in fire and fire in the sky at

1270
00:52:30,980 --> 00:52:28,440
the movie that he was about to release

1271
00:52:32,780 --> 00:52:30,990
and the producer again this is these are

1272
00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:32,790
the kind of the first images that he'd

1273
00:52:38,750 --> 00:52:35,730
seen really in pop culture of of

1274
00:52:41,300 --> 00:52:38,760
abduction iconography and so he's oh my

1275
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:41,310
god this has been done before and so

1276
00:52:46,070 --> 00:52:43,890
like I can't release a movie that's this

1277
00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:46,080
that's that's not new you know this is

1278
00:52:49,190 --> 00:52:47,730
this is this is old news it's been done

1279
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:49,200
before and it's been done like a year

1280
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:51,770
ago so I don't want to release a major

1281
00:52:59,390 --> 00:52:54,930
paramount movie that's it's not fresh

1282
00:53:01,820 --> 00:52:59,400
and so producer rang Torme very panicked

1283
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:01,830
and said you know you you've got a

1284
00:53:05,870 --> 00:53:04,050
you've got to rewrite the abduction

1285
00:53:07,820 --> 00:53:05,880
scene you've got to rewrite the the

1286
00:53:09,890 --> 00:53:07,830
experimentation sequence because

1287
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:09,900
originally what Torme had written was

1288
00:53:15,350 --> 00:53:12,090
exactly what what Travis Walton reported

1289
00:53:16,550 --> 00:53:15,360
which was which was not the horror scene

1290
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:16,560
that you see in the movie

1291
00:53:21,260 --> 00:53:18,090
it was certainly he was terrified and

1292
00:53:23,270 --> 00:53:21,270
confused and he claimed to have

1293
00:53:25,100 --> 00:53:23,280
encountered these gray type beings with

1294
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:25,110
the big eyes and then but that encounter

1295
00:53:28,010 --> 00:53:26,970
lasted a very short amount of time and

1296
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:28,020
then he spent more time with these

1297
00:53:32,420 --> 00:53:30,240
apparently human looking beings and was

1298
00:53:34,540 --> 00:53:32,430
taken into a big spaceport and you know

1299
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:34,550
it was this it was more like Star Trek

1300
00:53:39,590 --> 00:53:37,200
you know and that was originally what

1301
00:53:41,300 --> 00:53:39,600
was written in the script but the

1302
00:53:42,530 --> 00:53:41,310
executives apparent said like you've got

1303
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:42,540
it you've got to get rid of all of that

1304
00:53:46,910 --> 00:53:44,970
because it's too close to what we saw or

1305
00:53:50,090 --> 00:53:46,920
at least we don't want these sterile

1306
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:50,100
scenes of experimentation you know we

1307
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:52,410
want something we want you to

1308
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:54,810
reinterpret it basically so Torme was

1309
00:53:59,660 --> 00:53:57,210
was was really annoyed about this and

1310
00:54:01,850 --> 00:53:59,670
was kind of heartbroken to have to

1311
00:54:03,380 --> 00:54:01,860
report it to Travis and say we've got to

1312
00:54:04,190 --> 00:54:03,390
change it charis really didn't have my

1313
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:04,200
choice in the matter

1314
00:54:09,590 --> 00:54:06,690
he agreed to it reluctantly and actually

1315
00:54:12,020 --> 00:54:09,600
helped Travis excuse me actually helped

1316
00:54:14,340 --> 00:54:12,030
tore me shape that sequence and what

1317
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:14,350
they did was they tried to

1318
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:16,690
sure what what Travis reported in

1319
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:20,290
essence you know so so Travis reported

1320
00:54:24,660 --> 00:54:22,930
feeling feeling like he was suffocating

1321
00:54:27,210 --> 00:54:24,670
and that the air was thick and heavy and

1322
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:27,220
hard to breathe and so they they took

1323
00:54:30,540 --> 00:54:28,810
dramatic license with that and rather

1324
00:54:33,270 --> 00:54:30,550
than just showing that for what it was

1325
00:54:36,150 --> 00:54:33,280
they decided to have a you know these

1326
00:54:37,650 --> 00:54:36,160
goblin-like aliens put a horrible skin

1327
00:54:39,540 --> 00:54:37,660
like membrane over his mouth and

1328
00:54:41,490 --> 00:54:39,550
literally suffocate him so they took out

1329
00:54:43,950 --> 00:54:41,500
extreme artistic license and then they

1330
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:43,960
created this really graphic horror scene

1331
00:54:48,270 --> 00:54:46,570
and that that scene is so powerful a

1332
00:54:49,890 --> 00:54:48,280
sequence is so powerful did the rest of

1333
00:54:52,260 --> 00:54:49,900
the film is almost forgettable by

1334
00:54:53,670 --> 00:54:52,270
comparison and the only thing that you

1335
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:53,680
take away with you is that is that

1336
00:54:59,340 --> 00:54:57,130
horrific sequence it's a powerful film

1337
00:55:00,630 --> 00:54:59,350
it could have been better but it's I

1338
00:55:02,550 --> 00:55:00,640
have to say it's probably still one of

1339
00:55:04,470 --> 00:55:02,560
the best abduction movies that have been

1340
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:04,480
made but yeah but so that's an example

1341
00:55:07,710 --> 00:55:06,130
though there was no conspiracy there

1342
00:55:09,030 --> 00:55:07,720
people a lot of people were speculating

1343
00:55:11,670 --> 00:55:09,040
for years that you know that that was

1344
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:11,680
the government trying to you know to

1345
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:13,570
create fear around the phenomenon that

1346
00:55:17,340 --> 00:55:15,730
they deliberately changed the scene from

1347
00:55:19,350 --> 00:55:17,350
what Travis had reported because it was

1348
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:19,360
it was some kind of a conspiracy but it

1349
00:55:24,930 --> 00:55:21,370
wasn't that was just it was just in an

1350
00:55:27,570 --> 00:55:24,940
artistic an artistic issue and it was it

1351
00:55:30,270 --> 00:55:27,580
was it was it was the fears of the

1352
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:30,280
executives absolutely and I mean when

1353
00:55:34,410 --> 00:55:32,530
you have Torme himself bringing this

1354
00:55:35,820 --> 00:55:34,420
news to Travis that it had to be changed

1355
00:55:37,620 --> 00:55:35,830
I mean that right there shows the

1356
00:55:40,500 --> 00:55:37,630
compassion of the writer who actually

1357
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:40,510
cares about the authenticity to have

1358
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:43,690
Travis's say in reworking the scene and

1359
00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:45,850
finding like you said the essence of it

1360
00:55:50,130 --> 00:55:48,730
yeah I mean and he I mean Tracy to Tommy

1361
00:55:51,810 --> 00:55:50,140
you know he's really passionate about

1362
00:55:53,850 --> 00:55:51,820
his you know to this day very very

1363
00:55:57,450 --> 00:55:53,860
interested in the subject and remains

1364
00:56:00,420 --> 00:55:57,460
active in it and still making films on

1365
00:56:02,610 --> 00:56:00,430
the issue actually and he you know this

1366
00:56:04,980 --> 00:56:02,620
this this film was a passion project for

1367
00:56:07,140 --> 00:56:04,990
him it took six and a half years to get

1368
00:56:08,130 --> 00:56:07,150
it to screen you and he was thinking

1369
00:56:09,990 --> 00:56:08,140
about you know and he'd been trying to

1370
00:56:11,490 --> 00:56:10,000
get an abduction movie on screen since

1371
00:56:13,500 --> 00:56:11,500
the early 1980s when he was working with

1372
00:56:15,630 --> 00:56:13,510
Bert Hopkins I'm excited about what he's

1373
00:56:17,670 --> 00:56:15,640
working on now with James Fox and

1374
00:56:20,940 --> 00:56:17,680
hopefully we'll see that documentary

1375
00:56:25,470 --> 00:56:20,950
7:01 soon again all comes down to money

1376
00:56:28,230 --> 00:56:25,480
but you know Robbie a year later after

1377
00:56:34,849 --> 00:56:28,240
firing this guy came 1994

1378
00:56:37,650 --> 00:56:34,859
roswell film was well New Mexico in 1947

1379
00:56:39,599 --> 00:56:37,660
this local rancher just brought in a

1380
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:39,609
whole lot of I don't know what you call

1381
00:56:43,470 --> 00:56:41,890
it but he claims it all came down at his

1382
00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:43,480
place and the sheriff thinks it might be

1383
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:45,250
something you guys sent up our

1384
00:56:51,690 --> 00:56:47,490
government encountered something

1385
00:56:54,780 --> 00:56:51,700
something you know top-secret beyond our

1386
00:56:55,650 --> 00:56:54,790
capacity to understand couldn't been

1387
00:56:57,060 --> 00:56:55,660
anything of ours

1388
00:57:00,510 --> 00:56:57,070
I mean how in the hell was that thing

1389
00:57:02,700 --> 00:57:00,520
held together look at this of power so

1390
00:57:04,590 --> 00:57:02,710
terrifying

1391
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:04,600
it's as light as a feather I mean what

1392
00:57:09,540 --> 00:57:06,490
the hell are we dealing with here is a

1393
00:57:10,650 --> 00:57:09,550
friendly visit hostile a secret so

1394
00:57:12,420 --> 00:57:10,660
dangerous

1395
00:57:14,010 --> 00:57:12,430
from now on you're not to talk to anyone

1396
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:14,020
about this that includes your family

1397
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:15,970
that Ranger was threatened

1398
00:57:21,060 --> 00:57:17,530
the sheriff was threatened they

1399
00:57:23,940 --> 00:57:21,070
threatened me it could forever change

1400
00:57:25,890 --> 00:57:23,950
the world as

1401
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:25,900
people think that we are not can control

1402
00:57:32,819 --> 00:57:29,770
the disguise it'd be right written by

1403
00:57:35,310 --> 00:57:32,829
paul davids directed by jeremy Kagan

1404
00:57:38,069 --> 00:57:35,320
this foam had a long and sordid history

1405
00:57:40,109 --> 00:57:38,079
before it was completed would he care to

1406
00:57:42,420 --> 00:57:40,119
sort of run us through that history of

1407
00:57:45,630 --> 00:57:42,430
just exactly how the film was made and

1408
00:57:47,790 --> 00:57:45,640
what prompted David's to pen the story

1409
00:57:50,910 --> 00:57:47,800
for it at all well you know this this

1410
00:57:53,730 --> 00:57:50,920
was the I says 1994 TV movie and it was

1411
00:57:55,530 --> 00:57:53,740
really the first in-depth Hollywood

1412
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:55,540
treatment of the Roswell incident and

1413
00:57:59,160 --> 00:57:56,770
this was as I say it was written and

1414
00:58:02,880 --> 00:57:59,170
produced by Paul David's and David's

1415
00:58:05,220 --> 00:58:02,890
goal you know in making this movie was

1416
00:58:07,740 --> 00:58:05,230
not just to entertain but to educate he

1417
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:07,750
really felt that this film could bring a

1418
00:58:12,300 --> 00:58:09,930
certain truth to it to the wider public

1419
00:58:15,150 --> 00:58:12,310
it could it could bring to the attention

1420
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:15,160
this at the time little-known UFO case

1421
00:58:20,220 --> 00:58:18,490
people certainly outside of the UFO

1422
00:58:21,810 --> 00:58:20,230
field had really never heard of the

1423
00:58:23,849 --> 00:58:21,820
Roswell incident and this at this point

1424
00:58:26,970 --> 00:58:23,859
you'd had references to it in in the

1425
00:58:28,950 --> 00:58:26,980
x-files at the year prior but it had

1426
00:58:31,710 --> 00:58:28,960
really yet to break big in pop culture

1427
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:31,720
and to be honest you know it hadn't been

1428
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:34,000
the subject of a great deal of

1429
00:58:37,710 --> 00:58:36,130
discussion in the UFO community this

1430
00:58:40,950 --> 00:58:37,720
film this film really put it on the map

1431
00:58:42,300 --> 00:58:40,960
so it's also noteworthy I would say this

1432
00:58:44,309 --> 00:58:42,310
film because it was one of the first

1433
00:58:45,750 --> 00:58:44,319
movies to feature a direct reference to

1434
00:58:48,839 --> 00:58:45,760
area 51 again

1435
00:58:51,750 --> 00:58:48,849
area 51 does show up fleetingly in the

1436
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:51,760
x-files but this this this is a movie

1437
00:58:54,839 --> 00:58:53,410
that towards the end they they make

1438
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:54,849
reference to area 51 and there's this

1439
00:58:59,280 --> 00:58:57,250
dramatic recreation of a saucer park to

1440
00:59:02,670 --> 00:58:59,290
area 51 and it's images like that that

1441
00:59:04,650 --> 00:59:02,680
really kind of embedded themselves into

1442
00:59:06,809 --> 00:59:04,660
the conspiracy community and then in

1443
00:59:08,370 --> 00:59:06,819
turn into pop culture this this movie

1444
00:59:10,829 --> 00:59:08,380
had a huge huge impact although it was a

1445
00:59:13,050 --> 00:59:10,839
TV movie it was hugely successful for

1446
00:59:14,910 --> 00:59:13,060
HBO it was nominated for the Golden

1447
00:59:17,700 --> 00:59:14,920
Globe for the best picture of that year

1448
00:59:19,710 --> 00:59:17,710
best TV movie of that year and it was it

1449
00:59:21,870 --> 00:59:19,720
had it were played really really well

1450
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:21,880
with audiences it hugely increased the

1451
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:24,010
subscriber base for HBO and it was seen

1452
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:25,690
by millions and millions of people so I

1453
00:59:30,089 --> 00:59:27,970
mean I know that I actually asked paul

1454
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:30,099
davids if he thought that the word

1455
00:59:34,140 --> 00:59:32,050
Roswell you know would be so culturally

1456
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:34,150
resonant had he not so memorably

1457
00:59:37,710 --> 00:59:36,730
memorably contextualized it in his in

1458
00:59:39,780 --> 00:59:37,720
his movie and he said

1459
00:59:41,700 --> 00:59:39,790
you know not as much basically he thinks

1460
00:59:43,710 --> 00:59:41,710
that although the x-files had an impact

1461
00:59:46,140 --> 00:59:43,720
which certainly it did basically Roswell

1462
00:59:48,599 --> 00:59:46,150
his movie was was a huge part in in

1463
00:59:51,330 --> 00:59:48,609
popularizing the Roswell mythology shall

1464
00:59:54,810 --> 00:59:51,340
we say and it's a film that basically

1465
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:54,820
tells the story of Jesse Marcel and met

1466
00:59:59,910 --> 00:59:57,090
major Jesse Marcel who was one of the

1467
01:00:02,520 --> 00:59:59,920
original Roswell military witnesses

1468
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:02,530
shall we say not to a crash but to to a

1469
01:00:07,710 --> 01:00:05,770
crash site and to materials and I mean

1470
01:00:08,790 --> 01:00:07,720
everyone in almost everyone listening

1471
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:08,800
would probably have some idea of what

1472
01:00:13,230 --> 01:00:10,810
Roswell represents but this was this was

1473
01:00:15,270 --> 01:00:13,240
a hugely significant film and actually

1474
01:00:18,900 --> 01:00:15,280
again it took quite a while to come to

1475
01:00:20,910 --> 01:00:18,910
fruition because you know was because

1476
01:00:23,070 --> 01:00:20,920
paul davids had trouble selling it to

1477
01:00:25,980 --> 01:00:23,080
various networks for the same reasons

1478
01:00:28,910 --> 01:00:25,990
really the talmud had had trouble you

1479
01:00:33,300 --> 01:00:28,920
know again this was the early 1990s ufos

1480
01:00:36,180 --> 01:00:33,310
hadn't you know like the post 1994 were

1481
01:00:41,310 --> 01:00:36,190
post 1993 shall we say between 1993 and

1482
01:00:42,950 --> 01:00:41,320
like 1999 that was the era of the UFO in

1483
01:00:45,599 --> 01:00:42,960
hollywood that was when we had

1484
01:00:46,950 --> 01:00:45,609
Independence Day men in black you know

1485
01:00:49,290 --> 01:00:46,960
he had the x-files that run throughout

1486
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:49,300
the decade you had dark skies and

1487
01:00:54,089 --> 01:00:52,210
numerous of the alien movies like the

1488
01:00:55,349 --> 01:00:54,099
arrival with Charlie Sheen and all sorts

1489
01:00:57,329 --> 01:00:55,359
of films are tapped really into this

1490
01:00:59,280 --> 01:00:57,339
emerging subculture and and the

1491
01:01:01,500 --> 01:00:59,290
increasingly paranoid mindset within

1492
01:01:03,329 --> 01:01:01,510
this subculture this idea of government

1493
01:01:04,470 --> 01:01:03,339
UFO conspiracy and this this was

1494
01:01:06,180 --> 01:01:04,480
something that finally Hollywood

1495
01:01:08,900 --> 01:01:06,190
recognized was something that could sell

1496
01:01:10,950 --> 01:01:08,910
tickets and they had this really rich

1497
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:10,960
seventeen-year-old subculture to exploit

1498
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:14,170
and that's what they did and and you

1499
01:01:19,410 --> 01:01:16,290
know I've always found it odd that

1500
01:01:22,140 --> 01:01:19,420
filmmakers such as paul davids and know

1501
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:22,150
there's you know a Tracy Torme and an

1502
01:01:26,310 --> 01:01:24,130
interview to a filmmaker called Andy

1503
01:01:27,690 --> 01:01:26,320
fickman who directed the 2009 movie race

1504
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:27,700
to Witch Mountain which is also about

1505
01:01:32,430 --> 01:01:30,250
UFOs you made that for Disney you know a

1506
01:01:35,970 --> 01:01:32,440
lot of these filmmakers they tell me

1507
01:01:38,010 --> 01:01:35,980
that that they are genuinely passionate

1508
01:01:41,099 --> 01:01:38,020
about the subject about UFOs is a

1509
01:01:43,770 --> 01:01:41,109
factual reality and they want to use

1510
01:01:45,740 --> 01:01:43,780
their medium to educate the public about

1511
01:01:48,930 --> 01:01:45,750
this phenomenon but they don't seem to

1512
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:48,940
understand the nature of the medium that

1513
01:01:51,420 --> 01:01:50,530
they will they don't understand the

1514
01:01:54,450 --> 01:01:51,430
impact that it

1515
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:54,460
because it doesn't educate so much is it

1516
01:01:57,930 --> 01:01:56,770
skews our perceptions especially when

1517
01:01:59,730 --> 01:01:57,940
you know if you're if you're if you're

1518
01:02:02,700 --> 01:01:59,740
dealing with if you're the subject

1519
01:02:04,740 --> 01:02:02,710
matter of your film is fundamentally

1520
01:02:06,809 --> 01:02:04,750
true and then you are taking that

1521
01:02:08,849 --> 01:02:06,819
fundamental truth and you're distorting

1522
01:02:10,019 --> 01:02:08,859
it through the science fiction genre and

1523
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:10,029
presenting it as big-screen

1524
01:02:16,109 --> 01:02:12,690
entertainment it becomes fictionalized

1525
01:02:18,539 --> 01:02:16,119
and we don't receive it as audiences

1526
01:02:22,380 --> 01:02:18,549
munching on our popcorn as a documentary

1527
01:02:24,690 --> 01:02:22,390
as a representation of fact we interpret

1528
01:02:26,940 --> 01:02:24,700
it as fantasy and so I would argue that

1529
01:02:31,319 --> 01:02:26,950
these filmmakers yes they're raising

1530
01:02:33,569 --> 01:02:31,329
awareness of of or rather they're kind

1531
01:02:34,799 --> 01:02:33,579
of you know that they're embedding UFOs

1532
01:02:37,710 --> 01:02:34,809
and aliens further into our collective

1533
01:02:39,990 --> 01:02:37,720
consciousness but they're not factual

1534
01:02:41,700 --> 01:02:40,000
izing these these phenomena they're

1535
01:02:43,769 --> 01:02:41,710
fictionalizing them and so I would say

1536
01:02:45,900 --> 01:02:43,779
that they're doing a disservice to to

1537
01:02:47,700 --> 01:02:45,910
the field but you know they're not doing

1538
01:02:50,069 --> 01:02:47,710
it consciously that they're doing that

1539
01:02:51,569 --> 01:02:50,079
that's their medium and that's what they

1540
01:02:52,589 --> 01:02:51,579
love to do and that's what then that's

1541
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:52,599
the thing that they know how to do

1542
01:02:56,130 --> 01:02:54,970
they're writers they write the directors

1543
01:02:57,900 --> 01:02:56,140
they direct and they make these films

1544
01:02:59,970 --> 01:02:57,910
but I don't think they fully appreciate

1545
01:03:02,010 --> 01:02:59,980
the the complex impact that these

1546
01:03:04,650 --> 01:03:02,020
products have Robbie I want to move to

1547
01:03:06,359 --> 01:03:04,660
you small screen and we cannot go any

1548
01:03:09,839 --> 01:03:06,369
further without talking about perhaps

1549
01:03:12,450 --> 01:03:09,849
the most popular science fiction slash I

1550
01:03:13,410 --> 01:03:12,460
guess procedural show ever to air and

1551
01:03:15,750 --> 01:03:13,420
that's the x-files

1552
01:03:17,519 --> 01:03:15,760
I remember interviewing Dean Haglund who

1553
01:03:19,859 --> 01:03:17,529
played one of the Lone Gunmen a while

1554
01:03:21,779 --> 01:03:19,869
back and he told me that besides having

1555
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:21,789
countless references to UFO groups

1556
01:03:27,180 --> 01:03:24,010
government projects in even actual cases

1557
01:03:29,039 --> 01:03:27,190
government agents were and FBI as well

1558
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:29,049
were sometimes brought in to oversee

1559
01:03:33,990 --> 01:03:31,450
episodes and or give opinions on the

1560
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:34,000
authenticity of certain things in your

1561
01:03:38,069 --> 01:03:36,250
research did you ever come across any

1562
01:03:40,710 --> 01:03:38,079
connections to the government in this

1563
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:40,720
show with Chris Carter well I mean in

1564
01:03:45,539 --> 01:03:42,970
terms of government connections that I

1565
01:03:47,490 --> 01:03:45,549
mean that the first thing that springs

1566
01:03:49,289 --> 01:03:47,500
immediately to mind at which I mentioned

1567
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:49,299
in the book is and again this this

1568
01:03:54,930 --> 01:03:51,490
relates to what I just mentioned before

1569
01:03:58,109 --> 01:03:54,940
about a long-standing effort to dis

1570
01:04:00,299 --> 01:03:58,119
inform and deceive and which dates back

1571
01:04:01,859 --> 01:04:00,309
to the at least the early 1980s and

1572
01:04:03,660 --> 01:04:01,869
specifically to a man called Richard

1573
01:04:04,810 --> 01:04:03,670
Doty who was in Air Force intelligence

1574
01:04:08,260 --> 01:04:04,820
off

1575
01:04:10,270 --> 01:04:08,270
oh yeah let's take one step at a time

1576
01:04:13,450 --> 01:04:10,280
you're looking at Richard Doty the

1577
01:04:15,180 --> 01:04:13,460
professional dissin farmer trained to

1578
01:04:19,150 --> 01:04:15,190
lie

1579
01:04:22,150 --> 01:04:19,160
I'm Richard Doty there's probably about

1580
01:04:24,690 --> 01:04:22,160
80% of false information being presented

1581
01:04:27,730 --> 01:04:24,700
about 20% of factual information

1582
01:04:29,970 --> 01:04:27,740
unfortunately the UFO community doesn't

1583
01:04:33,100 --> 01:04:29,980
know which is which

1584
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:33,110
that was my job before I'm a private

1585
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:35,330
citizen now but back in the early

1586
01:04:43,150 --> 01:04:37,850
eighties it was my job to confuse the

1587
01:04:44,350 --> 01:04:43,160
UFO community Doty was you know was at

1588
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:44,360
the forefront he wasn't the guy who

1589
01:04:48,790 --> 01:04:46,010
crafted it but he was he was at the

1590
01:04:51,220 --> 01:04:48,800
forefront of this very ambitious and

1591
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:51,230
hugely successful a disinformation

1592
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:53,330
psychological warfare campaign that was

1593
01:04:58,120 --> 01:04:55,610
waged through the UFO community not

1594
01:05:02,650 --> 01:04:58,130
necessarily on it but through it and it

1595
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:02,660
was exploiting belief in UFOs and sought

1596
01:05:09,250 --> 01:05:05,330
to exploit what was rapidly emerging as

1597
01:05:11,170 --> 01:05:09,260
a New Age religion and Richard Doty and

1598
01:05:13,090 --> 01:05:11,180
this is very very well documented now

1599
01:05:15,010 --> 01:05:13,100
again this is this is way too complex to

1600
01:05:16,570 --> 01:05:15,020
go into in the time that we have here

1601
01:05:18,130 --> 01:05:16,580
and it's been very well documented

1602
01:05:19,180 --> 01:05:18,140
elsewhere as I say but and I would

1603
01:05:20,950 --> 01:05:19,190
highly recommend that people watch the

1604
01:05:22,900 --> 01:05:20,960
film mirages men and read the book

1605
01:05:25,030 --> 01:05:22,910
mirages men as well which goes into this

1606
01:05:27,910 --> 01:05:25,040
and I again devote considerable time to

1607
01:05:31,090 --> 01:05:27,920
it in my own book Richard Doty was was a

1608
01:05:35,710 --> 01:05:31,100
an ace disinformation agent basically

1609
01:05:39,220 --> 01:05:35,720
and very interestingly Doty claimed to

1610
01:05:43,060 --> 01:05:39,230
have been an advisor and been there on

1611
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:43,070
set during the x-files various points

1612
01:05:48,550 --> 01:05:45,130
during during different seasons and

1613
01:05:50,890 --> 01:05:48,560
claims to have actually co-written one

1614
01:05:53,650 --> 01:05:50,900
at least one episode again relating to

1615
01:05:55,060 --> 01:05:53,660
aliens and UFOs and and claims have

1616
01:05:58,210 --> 01:05:55,070
actually been in another episode as an

1617
01:06:01,090 --> 01:05:58,220
extra and so you know and was close with

1618
01:06:03,330 --> 01:06:01,100
with with Chris Carter that in itself

1619
01:06:06,070 --> 01:06:03,340
raises a lot of questions the x-files

1620
01:06:09,070 --> 01:06:06,080
overarching narrative that run for nine

1621
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:09,080
seasons of course was I mean the impact

1622
01:06:12,910 --> 01:06:10,970
of that series cannot be understated it

1623
01:06:14,530 --> 01:06:12,920
it continues to be felt today I mean

1624
01:06:17,140 --> 01:06:14,540
it's a first of all it's an absolutely

1625
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:17,150
amazing series it's one of the best in

1626
01:06:22,150 --> 01:06:18,650
my opinion one of the best TV shows

1627
01:06:24,700 --> 01:06:22,160
made on in any genre he had it had its

1628
01:06:26,380 --> 01:06:24,710
ups and downs but overall it maintained

1629
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:26,390
a very high quality very high standard

1630
01:06:32,740 --> 01:06:29,690
of writing and it was it was a very very

1631
01:06:34,780 --> 01:06:32,750
impressive piece of work and it it was

1632
01:06:37,990 --> 01:06:34,790
very clever you know so Chris Carter the

1633
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:38,000
creator he and his researchers they

1634
01:06:41,140 --> 01:06:39,890
really did their work they you know they

1635
01:06:43,810 --> 01:06:41,150
weren't just kind of casually reading

1636
01:06:45,310 --> 01:06:43,820
magazine articles about flying saucers

1637
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:45,320
here and there you know they really did

1638
01:06:47,830 --> 01:06:46,490
their research they read a lot of

1639
01:06:50,770 --> 01:06:47,840
material on this they interview people

1640
01:06:54,730 --> 01:06:50,780
they spent time with experiences with

1641
01:06:57,070 --> 01:06:54,740
UFO witnesses with researchers you know

1642
01:07:00,130 --> 01:06:57,080
so so Chris Carter actually spent time

1643
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:00,140
with John Mack and with and we've done

1644
01:07:04,150 --> 01:07:02,210
with with John Mack who was the Harvard

1645
01:07:05,950 --> 01:07:04,160
psychiatrist who was kind of pirate

1646
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:05,960
pioneering in his abduction research in

1647
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:08,690
the 90s and they spent time with you

1648
01:07:12,340 --> 01:07:10,730
know the the show creators spent time

1649
01:07:14,650 --> 01:07:12,350
with with John Mack and with his

1650
01:07:15,970 --> 01:07:14,660
experiences so they really absorbed all

1651
01:07:18,510 --> 01:07:15,980
of this information and and they

1652
01:07:22,300 --> 01:07:18,520
incorporated it often in quite a

1653
01:07:24,970 --> 01:07:22,310
respectful and accurate way into their

1654
01:07:27,550 --> 01:07:24,980
into series and again the result was

1655
01:07:30,580 --> 01:07:27,560
that these previously fringe subcultural

1656
01:07:32,500 --> 01:07:30,590
ideas started to filter in a very

1657
01:07:34,150 --> 01:07:32,510
immediate way into the heart of pop

1658
01:07:36,700 --> 01:07:34,160
culture through the biggest show on

1659
01:07:38,670 --> 01:07:36,710
television at the time and which

1660
01:07:42,610 --> 01:07:38,680
remained very popular throughout its run

1661
01:07:44,860 --> 01:07:42,620
so so absolutely it acted as a conduit

1662
01:07:47,230 --> 01:07:44,870
for these ideas whether or not that was

1663
01:07:49,990 --> 01:07:47,240
a natural cultural process or something

1664
01:07:51,580 --> 01:07:50,000
political and conspiratorial there's no

1665
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:51,590
there's no clear answer on that when it

1666
01:07:57,130 --> 01:07:53,330
comes to the x-files because actually

1667
01:08:00,580 --> 01:07:57,140
Chris Karthik he's he doesn't give a lot

1668
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:00,590
away but what you have again you know a

1669
01:08:03,250 --> 01:08:01,970
lot of people like in this Guinness

1670
01:08:06,340 --> 01:08:03,260
community they're like either all

1671
01:08:09,070 --> 01:08:06,350
answers you know they like distinctions

1672
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:09,080
to be made and when it comes to UFOs and

1673
01:08:13,270 --> 01:08:11,090
why and how we've come to think of them

1674
01:08:15,430 --> 01:08:13,280
through Hollywood it seems to be a

1675
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:15,440
cultural process versus a conspiratorial

1676
01:08:20,440 --> 01:08:17,930
one and see people ask me is it all a

1677
01:08:22,480 --> 01:08:20,450
big Hollywood conspiracy or is it just

1678
01:08:25,150 --> 01:08:22,490
something that that just has naturally

1679
01:08:27,460 --> 01:08:25,160
evolved because filmmakers see dramatic

1680
01:08:29,500 --> 01:08:27,470
potential in these reports and this

1681
01:08:32,539 --> 01:08:29,510
subculture and they exploit it well the

1682
01:08:34,849 --> 01:08:32,549
answer is both its primary

1683
01:08:37,549 --> 01:08:34,859
really now a natural cultural process

1684
01:08:39,289 --> 01:08:37,559
but in its early years it was very

1685
01:08:40,970 --> 01:08:39,299
political because of the Roberts and

1686
01:08:44,450 --> 01:08:40,980
panel's recommendations to use mass

1687
01:08:46,010 --> 01:08:44,460
media to basic to basically manipulate

1688
01:08:47,169 --> 01:08:46,020
massage people's perceptions of the

1689
01:08:49,819 --> 01:08:47,179
phenomenon and then those

1690
01:08:52,549 --> 01:08:49,829
recommendations kind of shifted or

1691
01:08:53,780 --> 01:08:52,559
adapted over the years and and various

1692
01:08:56,660 --> 01:08:53,790
different agencies got involved the

1693
01:08:58,549 --> 01:08:56,670
Pentagon the CIA even the FBI all had

1694
01:09:01,579 --> 01:08:58,559
concerns about UFO representations over

1695
01:09:03,499 --> 01:09:01,589
the years what you've had is is from

1696
01:09:06,079 --> 01:09:03,509
time to time from production to

1697
01:09:09,289 --> 01:09:06,089
production over the decades you've had

1698
01:09:12,530 --> 01:09:09,299
demonstrable cases of government and

1699
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:12,540
military interference and influence in

1700
01:09:18,709 --> 01:09:15,449
UFO themed productions some of those are

1701
01:09:20,450 --> 01:09:18,719
very very concrete but overall but it's

1702
01:09:22,490 --> 01:09:20,460
simultaneously what you have is is this

1703
01:09:25,249 --> 01:09:22,500
natural cultural process emerging where

1704
01:09:27,319 --> 01:09:25,259
UFOs whatever they might represent as a

1705
01:09:29,870 --> 01:09:27,329
phenomenon seem to be ontological real

1706
01:09:32,149 --> 01:09:29,880
on some level and therefore never go

1707
01:09:34,189 --> 01:09:32,159
away people continue to experience the

1708
01:09:35,629 --> 01:09:34,199
grassroots level people continue to

1709
01:09:37,519 --> 01:09:35,639
report them and then as long as those

1710
01:09:39,499 --> 01:09:37,529
reports continue to surface they will

1711
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:39,509
continue to find their way to Hollywood

1712
01:09:42,890 --> 01:09:41,489
creatives who will continue to exploit

1713
01:09:45,999 --> 01:09:42,900
them and popularize them and

1714
01:09:48,140 --> 01:09:46,009
simultaneously fictionalize them and

1715
01:09:49,309 --> 01:09:48,150
simultaneously actualize them because

1716
01:09:50,870 --> 01:09:49,319
that's the power of Hollywood as well

1717
01:09:53,539 --> 01:09:50,880
it's simultaneously fiction eliza's and

1718
01:09:59,390 --> 01:09:53,549
actualizes whatever it depicts because

1719
01:10:01,129 --> 01:09:59,400
we recommend as a form of fantasy at the

1720
01:10:03,470 --> 01:10:01,139
same time it does on a weird level

1721
01:10:06,229 --> 01:10:03,480
actualize its subject matter it becomes

1722
01:10:09,350 --> 01:10:06,239
somehow real you know in a way this this

1723
01:10:11,569 --> 01:10:09,360
is almost mystical and and so so again

1724
01:10:14,089 --> 01:10:11,579
these are the questions that really that

1725
01:10:15,830 --> 01:10:14,099
really drive me in my research on on

1726
01:10:17,810 --> 01:10:15,840
UFOs in Hollywood I don't see it as

1727
01:10:19,850 --> 01:10:17,820
something that's just there's peripheral

1728
01:10:21,379 --> 01:10:19,860
you know you're the Hollywood angle I

1729
01:10:22,549 --> 01:10:21,389
don't see UFO movies this peripheral to

1730
01:10:24,620 --> 01:10:22,559
the phenomena and I believe that they

1731
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:24,630
are central to our understanding or a

1732
01:10:27,979 --> 01:10:26,250
misunderstanding of the phenomenon and

1733
01:10:30,799 --> 01:10:27,989
let's not forget that the modern

1734
01:10:34,430 --> 01:10:30,809
phenomenon of UFOs emerged in 1947 and

1735
01:10:36,410 --> 01:10:34,440
Hollywood's first UFO movie was released

1736
01:10:38,410 --> 01:10:36,420
just three years later so the two so the

1737
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:38,420
two have gone almost hand-in-hand

1738
01:10:44,419 --> 01:10:41,130
throughout the you know for the past 70

1739
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:44,429
years and so separating the two really

1740
01:10:47,410 --> 01:10:45,890
should be a great

1741
01:10:49,810 --> 01:10:47,420
interest to anyone who's interested in

1742
01:10:52,180 --> 01:10:49,820
the subject absolutely it's startling

1743
01:10:54,100 --> 01:10:52,190
how closely they parallel to one another

1744
01:10:57,370 --> 01:10:54,110
Robbie a lesser-known

1745
01:11:00,430 --> 01:10:57,380
show but extremely well made in my

1746
01:11:04,870 --> 01:11:00,440
opinion was dark skies made by our

1747
01:11:08,530 --> 01:11:04,880
mutual friend Bryce Abel 1947 Roswell

1748
01:11:12,140 --> 01:11:08,540
New Mexico an event takes place that

1749
01:11:17,460 --> 01:11:15,270
they have come

1750
01:11:20,370 --> 01:11:17,470
an alien force of incomparable power

1751
01:11:23,460 --> 01:11:20,380
with a deadly ultimatum they just

1752
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:23,470
demanded our unconditional surrender now

1753
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:26,050
the battle has begun we're about to bet

1754
01:11:31,140 --> 01:11:28,810
the entire human race so has the

1755
01:11:33,060 --> 01:11:31,150
cover-up I have nothing but a figment of

1756
01:11:35,580 --> 01:11:33,070
your imagination because this incident

1757
01:11:37,590 --> 01:11:35,590
never happened could you tell us a bit

1758
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:37,600
about the plot of this show its ties to

1759
01:11:43,440 --> 01:11:41,530
the so called majestic 12 and some of

1760
01:11:46,350 --> 01:11:43,450
the shady dealings that Bryce sable

1761
01:11:48,450 --> 01:11:46,360
encountered while making this series yes

1762
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:48,460
this is a show that was made in the mid

1763
01:11:53,460 --> 01:11:50,890
1990s and it was created by as you say

1764
01:11:56,580 --> 01:11:53,470
Bryce sable and Brent Freedman and it

1765
01:11:59,790 --> 01:11:56,590
presented an alternate history of 20th

1766
01:12:02,010 --> 01:11:59,800
century America it was you know its

1767
01:12:04,830 --> 01:12:02,020
tagline was history as we know it is a

1768
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:04,840
lie and in this case it was a lie built

1769
01:12:08,550 --> 01:12:06,970
around this secret alien presence on

1770
01:12:11,550 --> 01:12:08,560
earth and that the u.s. government was

1771
01:12:14,280 --> 01:12:11,560
secretly trying to understand and

1772
01:12:15,300 --> 01:12:14,290
control this this alien threat and there

1773
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:15,310
were there were some parallels with the

1774
01:12:21,390 --> 01:12:17,770
x-files and and but it drew very again

1775
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:21,400
it drew very specifically from existing

1776
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:23,530
UFO literature and debate at a time but

1777
01:12:26,790 --> 01:12:24,730
then it furthered that as well and it

1778
01:12:30,660 --> 01:12:26,800
fleshed out even more and perhaps even

1779
01:12:33,330 --> 01:12:30,670
you know created new beliefs as the

1780
01:12:34,650 --> 01:12:33,340
x-files did so again it begins with the

1781
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:34,660
Roswell incident you've got all of the

1782
01:12:39,540 --> 01:12:37,330
key you for logical ideas and in

1783
01:12:42,330 --> 01:12:39,550
landmarks area 51 all that kind of stuff

1784
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:42,340
and what they did was Bryce and Brent

1785
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:45,250
they pitched their show to networks in

1786
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:47,250
America in the form of a top-secret

1787
01:12:51,900 --> 01:12:49,570
briefing file they created this mock-up

1788
01:12:54,090 --> 01:12:51,910
top-secret file and it was modeled on

1789
01:12:56,910 --> 01:12:54,100
the majestic 12 documents these so

1790
01:12:59,100 --> 01:12:56,920
so-called authentic documents which have

1791
01:13:00,660 --> 01:12:59,110
proven to be anything but containing

1792
01:13:03,090 --> 01:13:00,670
information relating to the Roswell

1793
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:03,100
incident and other crashes of UFOs and

1794
01:13:07,950 --> 01:13:06,130
aliens over the years and basically they

1795
01:13:09,900 --> 01:13:07,960
presented this thick ring bound file

1796
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:09,910
which they refer to as their dark skies

1797
01:13:13,740 --> 01:13:11,410
Bible and they presented this to the

1798
01:13:16,170 --> 01:13:13,750
network executives and it contained all

1799
01:13:17,820 --> 01:13:16,180
this UFO lore and a real official

1800
01:13:20,480 --> 01:13:17,830
history and and the plan was to have

1801
01:13:23,460 --> 01:13:20,490
five series you know five shows five

1802
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:23,470
seasons of the show excuse me it's in

1803
01:13:28,450 --> 01:13:25,489
American term

1804
01:13:29,950 --> 01:13:28,460
and the the file it was it had on front

1805
01:13:32,650 --> 01:13:29,960
on the front of it a one-page letter

1806
01:13:34,870 --> 01:13:32,660
written by their the shows fictional

1807
01:13:36,250 --> 01:13:34,880
hero a character called John Lowen guard

1808
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:36,260
so they'd written it as John Lowe and

1809
01:13:40,660 --> 01:13:39,290
guard and it was addressed to Bryce and

1810
01:13:41,979 --> 01:13:40,670
Brent so that written is letter to

1811
01:13:45,070 --> 01:13:41,989
themselves essentially from their

1812
01:13:47,470 --> 01:13:45,080
character and the lats are actually read

1813
01:13:49,420 --> 01:13:47,480
and I quote Bryson Brentt the truth must

1814
01:13:50,770 --> 01:13:49,430
be told you have been chosen as

1815
01:13:53,290 --> 01:13:50,780
instruments to achieve this objective

1816
01:13:55,690 --> 01:13:53,300
the truth however must not be

1817
01:13:57,700 --> 01:13:55,700
represented as truth too many people are

1818
01:13:58,959 --> 01:13:57,710
needed in the struggle too many people

1819
01:14:01,300 --> 01:13:58,969
who are needed in the struggle will die

1820
01:14:03,250 --> 01:14:01,310
the cover of fiction must be used to

1821
01:14:04,420 --> 01:14:03,260
present this truth those who fear the

1822
01:14:06,550 --> 01:14:04,430
light will not want to bring attention

1823
01:14:08,350 --> 01:14:06,560
to you by allowing your death this is

1824
01:14:10,270 --> 01:14:08,360
the only way do not be afraid

1825
01:14:13,750 --> 01:14:10,280
the fight for Humanity depends on your

1826
01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:13,760
courage John low and guard ash so that

1827
01:14:19,510 --> 01:14:17,450
was a really cool idea as a hell of a

1828
01:14:23,229 --> 01:14:19,520
cover later and naturally they accept

1829
01:14:25,270 --> 01:14:23,239
that the you know the NBC accepted the

1830
01:14:27,220 --> 01:14:25,280
show and they got to work on it and

1831
01:14:28,750 --> 01:14:27,230
Bryce said you know literally everything

1832
01:14:30,370 --> 01:14:28,760
that he'd read in UFO literature ended

1833
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:30,380
up in the series and from Betty and

1834
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:32,210
Barney Hill to majestic 12 area 51

1835
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:34,010
Roswell it may have been that the

1836
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:37,370
inclusion of such intricate fact-based

1837
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:40,610
detail attracted real-world government

1838
01:14:46,990 --> 01:14:43,610
UFO spooks what happened was that during

1839
01:14:50,500 --> 01:14:47,000
one of the sort of wrap parties towards

1840
01:14:52,330 --> 01:14:50,510
the end of drawing a shoot basically

1841
01:14:53,380 --> 01:14:52,340
they hadn't yet filmed most of the

1842
01:14:55,030 --> 01:14:53,390
episodes I think they're only just

1843
01:14:56,860 --> 01:14:55,040
wrapped the first episode and they were

1844
01:14:59,680 --> 01:14:56,870
having an invitation-only

1845
01:15:02,260 --> 01:14:59,690
private party of Bryce's house in Los

1846
01:15:04,870 --> 01:15:02,270
Angeles I was about 200 people cast and

1847
01:15:06,250 --> 01:15:04,880
crew invited bear in mind that the rest

1848
01:15:08,350 --> 01:15:06,260
of the show hadn't been filmed yet and

1849
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:08,360
this is way you know this is way in

1850
01:15:12,459 --> 01:15:09,650
advance of anything being shown on

1851
01:15:14,020 --> 01:15:12,469
television and each of the guests showed

1852
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:14,030
up you to the people who were invited

1853
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:18,530
had to wear a badge a majestic 12

1854
01:15:23,830 --> 01:15:21,650
mock-up badge ID badge kind of in

1855
01:15:25,959 --> 01:15:23,840
reference to Bob Lazar actually his ID

1856
01:15:28,060 --> 01:15:25,969
badge that was made famous after a 50

1857
01:15:29,229 --> 01:15:28,070
area 51 and that was how you know you've

1858
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:29,239
been invited because you bought one of

1859
01:15:34,390 --> 01:15:31,370
these badges anyway during the course of

1860
01:15:36,940 --> 01:15:34,400
the evening Bryce and Brent noticed some

1861
01:15:38,770 --> 01:15:36,950
guy who didn't have a badge and who they

1862
01:15:39,190 --> 01:15:38,780
didn't really recognize and who no one

1863
01:15:40,480 --> 01:15:39,200
seemed to

1864
01:15:43,300 --> 01:15:40,490
cognize he was this young ish

1865
01:15:45,130 --> 01:15:43,310
20-something preppy looking guy and he

1866
01:15:48,370 --> 01:15:45,140
kind of made his way into the kitchen

1867
01:15:53,110 --> 01:15:48,380
and approached Bryce and said hey you

1868
01:15:56,440 --> 01:15:53,120
know we've seen your show and we've seen

1869
01:15:57,910 --> 01:15:56,450
your show and you get some stuff right

1870
01:15:59,920 --> 01:15:57,920
but you get a lot of stuff wrong and

1871
01:16:01,450 --> 01:15:59,930
we'd like to help you with it we'd like

1872
01:16:07,570 --> 01:16:01,460
to help you get the details right and

1873
01:16:08,890 --> 01:16:07,580
Bryce and Brett were like sorry and he

1874
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:08,900
said yeah we've seen your show blah blah

1875
01:16:12,340 --> 01:16:11,090
blah and they were like Bryce was was

1876
01:16:13,690 --> 01:16:12,350
the host of the party had two hundred

1877
01:16:15,190 --> 01:16:13,700
guests to attend to and he was like I

1878
01:16:17,560 --> 01:16:15,200
really don't have much time for this and

1879
01:16:18,820 --> 01:16:17,570
I gotta go and see to my guests and and

1880
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:18,830
they didn't really know what to make of

1881
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:22,610
him and he contacted them after and he

1882
01:16:25,810 --> 01:16:24,050
said oh he said he represents you know a

1883
01:16:29,710 --> 01:16:25,820
group of people who have access to this

1884
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:29,720
information etc and he phoned Brent the

1885
01:16:35,050 --> 01:16:32,570
co-creator of the show a later date and

1886
01:16:37,030 --> 01:16:35,060
and then basically set up a meeting with

1887
01:16:39,610 --> 01:16:37,040
them and they agreed to this meeting and

1888
01:16:42,940 --> 01:16:39,620
then this meeting was held in Bryce and

1889
01:16:44,350 --> 01:16:42,950
Brent's office in Hollywood and did the

1890
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:44,360
same guy showed up but this time he

1891
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:46,570
showed up with two of the guys and

1892
01:16:52,780 --> 01:16:49,010
another young guy and then an older guy

1893
01:16:54,490 --> 01:16:52,790
and they said that they were from there

1894
01:16:57,880 --> 01:16:54,500
that they were with Naval Intelligence

1895
01:17:01,090 --> 01:16:57,890
and that they were Navy SEALs in fact

1896
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:01,100
and Bryce and Brent said that well Bryce

1897
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:02,410
told me

1898
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:04,730
that they really looked the part you

1899
01:17:08,410 --> 01:17:06,650
know that that they were to tell him

1900
01:17:09,370 --> 01:17:08,420
they were Navy SEALs there's no reason

1901
01:17:11,020 --> 01:17:09,380
he should doubt that they were Navy

1902
01:17:13,690 --> 01:17:11,030
SEALs they looked like they were Navy

1903
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:13,700
SEALs you know and they spoke the

1904
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:15,410
language they walked the walk they

1905
01:17:20,650 --> 01:17:17,570
talked the talk and they seemed to have

1906
01:17:22,500 --> 01:17:20,660
a very very very detailed narrative that

1907
01:17:25,450 --> 01:17:22,510
they spun they're in the office of

1908
01:17:28,240 --> 01:17:25,460
aliens and UFOs and the government and

1909
01:17:30,670 --> 01:17:28,250
and how they would help you know Bryce

1910
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:30,680
and Brent on their show and they would

1911
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:32,330
help them with the scripts and all this

1912
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:33,530
kind of stuff and they wanted to be

1913
01:17:37,420 --> 01:17:35,930
involved and that they would need to be

1914
01:17:39,940 --> 01:17:37,430
read into the program they would need to

1915
01:17:41,410 --> 01:17:39,950
be given access like the Bryson Brentt

1916
01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:41,420
would need to be given access to this

1917
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:43,370
information and the only way to do that

1918
01:17:47,950 --> 01:17:45,050
would be to go and meet the big guy

1919
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:47,960
presumably some Admiral Admiral on a

1920
01:17:51,970 --> 01:17:50,330
ship on a naval ship in the dark and

1921
01:17:53,130 --> 01:17:51,980
they were gonna set that set up this

1922
01:17:55,710 --> 01:17:53,140
meeting and stuff and

1923
01:17:57,510 --> 01:17:55,720
and at one point during them the meeting

1924
01:18:01,620 --> 01:17:57,520
in the office then one of the guys takes

1925
01:18:03,930 --> 01:18:01,630
out a vial of gold liquid material and

1926
01:18:06,390 --> 01:18:03,940
puts it on the desk and he's yelling at

1927
01:18:07,530 --> 01:18:06,400
Bryce and Brent kind of like swearing

1928
01:18:08,730 --> 01:18:07,540
basically saying you guys you think

1929
01:18:10,740 --> 01:18:08,740
you're so smart with your Hollywood

1930
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:10,750
scripts and but you don't know what

1931
01:18:13,470 --> 01:18:12,010
you're dealing with this is real you

1932
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:13,480
know you don't even have this in your

1933
01:18:16,440 --> 01:18:14,650
script you don't even know what this is

1934
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:16,450
and he puts this vial of gold on the

1935
01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:18,970
table you know what what is that meant

1936
01:18:23,430 --> 01:18:20,050
to represent it that meant to be some

1937
01:18:27,510 --> 01:18:23,440
kind of alien fuel or or is it alien

1938
01:18:29,190 --> 01:18:27,520
element or I mean and as Bryce has been

1939
01:18:30,810 --> 01:18:29,200
a really freaked out by all of this and

1940
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:30,820
at the end of the meeting anyway and

1941
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:32,770
they they say look we can set up a

1942
01:18:36,210 --> 01:18:34,810
meeting with the big guy and we'll have

1943
01:18:38,580 --> 01:18:36,220
to get back to you with the details of

1944
01:18:41,850 --> 01:18:38,590
that and then when they finally get back

1945
01:18:46,970 --> 01:18:41,860
to them they say okay next time we meet

1946
01:18:54,210 --> 01:18:46,980
we have to meet we have to be at

1947
01:18:57,810 --> 01:18:54,220
midnight in some cemetery proper x-files

1948
01:19:00,570 --> 01:18:57,820
stuff I said look I'm out

1949
01:19:02,970 --> 01:19:00,580
this is he says I've got children and

1950
01:19:04,890 --> 01:19:02,980
I've got a show to run I got a family

1951
01:19:07,050 --> 01:19:04,900
and I don't want any part of this and

1952
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:07,060
that was he stepped away from it and I

1953
01:19:11,670 --> 01:19:09,850
think the guys they phoned Brent once

1954
01:19:15,750 --> 01:19:11,680
more but that was the last they'd heard

1955
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:15,760
of it but you know Bryce kind of in

1956
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:18,850
interviews he he kind of dismisses it

1957
01:19:21,750 --> 01:19:20,530
all really in kind of like he tells it

1958
01:19:23,250 --> 01:19:21,760
how I've just told it essentially I

1959
01:19:24,690 --> 01:19:23,260
probably got a few details wrong but he

1960
01:19:26,970 --> 01:19:24,700
tells it essentially as I've told it in

1961
01:19:29,220 --> 01:19:26,980
the same tone but he's no I don't really

1962
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:29,230
know what to make of it but when you ask

1963
01:19:33,270 --> 01:19:30,610
him he says you know I think that they

1964
01:19:34,470 --> 01:19:33,280
were real but he doesn't necessarily you

1965
01:19:38,250 --> 01:19:34,480
know he thinks that they were actually

1966
01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:38,260
like you know I I I'm very little doubt

1967
01:19:42,210 --> 01:19:40,810
that they were probably with if not

1968
01:19:45,090 --> 01:19:42,220
naval intelligence then with some

1969
01:19:46,980 --> 01:19:45,100
three-letter agency and that they were

1970
01:19:48,330 --> 01:19:46,990
they're not that and you know I don't

1971
01:19:50,150 --> 01:19:48,340
believe that the vial of gold they put

1972
01:19:52,020 --> 01:19:50,160
on the table was was anything

1973
01:19:53,970 --> 01:19:52,030
extraterrestrial I believe that that

1974
01:19:55,830 --> 01:19:53,980
whole operation was to screw with their

1975
01:19:57,540 --> 01:19:55,840
minds and was to potentially yes

1976
01:20:00,510 --> 01:19:57,550
infiltrate their show so that they could

1977
01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:00,520
so very specific ideas about a subject

1978
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:02,050
that they've been deeply concerned about

1979
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:03,010
for many decades

1980
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:05,890
but they can so the narrative that suits

1981
01:20:08,210 --> 01:20:06,850
them because you

1982
01:20:11,900 --> 01:20:08,220
you know what the powers that be

1983
01:20:14,940 --> 01:20:11,910
recognized long ago was that you cannot

1984
01:20:17,850 --> 01:20:14,950
contrary to Roberts and panels desires

1985
01:20:19,530 --> 01:20:17,860
you cannot completely debunk and

1986
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:19,540
demystify a phenomenon that continues to

1987
01:20:21,570 --> 01:20:21,250
manifest itself spectacularly around the

1988
01:20:24,180 --> 01:20:21,580
world

1989
01:20:26,220 --> 01:20:24,190
if the phenomenon exists then that's it

1990
01:20:28,500 --> 01:20:26,230
people will continue to experience it so

1991
01:20:29,910 --> 01:20:28,510
you can't debunk it and make people

1992
01:20:32,820 --> 01:20:29,920
believe that it doesn't exist but what

1993
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:32,830
you can do is you can attempt to shape

1994
01:20:37,610 --> 01:20:34,330
and manage how people perceive the

1995
01:20:40,110 --> 01:20:37,620
phenomenon and that has been the goal of

1996
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:40,120
Industry and filtration for so many

1997
01:20:43,890 --> 01:20:42,370
decades it's not it's not to debunk and

1998
01:20:45,870 --> 01:20:43,900
demystify anymore as it was in the early

1999
01:20:48,690 --> 01:20:45,880
years it's to shape an already existing

2000
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:48,700
belief system and to exploit it for

2001
01:20:51,810 --> 01:20:50,290
various reasons for all sorts of

2002
01:20:54,060 --> 01:20:51,820
different reasons but one of them is

2003
01:20:55,980 --> 01:20:54,070
psychological warfare against other

2004
01:20:57,450 --> 01:20:55,990
nations and this is again something that

2005
01:20:59,340 --> 01:20:57,460
I look into in the book and which has

2006
01:21:02,400 --> 01:20:59,350
been documented and explored by others

2007
01:21:03,780 --> 01:21:02,410
so yeah and there's a there's a lot to

2008
01:21:05,370 --> 01:21:03,790
go into on that for and again it's

2009
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:05,380
another another half an hour's discrete

2010
01:21:13,500 --> 01:21:07,330
discussion and I don't want to risk if I

2011
01:21:16,170 --> 01:21:13,510
already sent people to sleep it's

2012
01:21:17,940 --> 01:21:16,180
extremely intriguing I mean and that you

2013
01:21:20,970 --> 01:21:17,950
bring up such a good point Robby I mean

2014
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:20,980
who knows what the government actually

2015
01:21:25,470 --> 01:21:23,650
knows about the phenomenon but like you

2016
01:21:27,780 --> 01:21:25,480
said while they may not be able to

2017
01:21:29,610 --> 01:21:27,790
control the phenomenon they can control

2018
01:21:34,860 --> 01:21:29,620
the information that is told to the

2019
01:21:36,750 --> 01:21:34,870
public so it's a wonderful point you

2020
01:21:39,330 --> 01:21:36,760
know the narrative that is emerged very

2021
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:39,340
consistently especially in films that

2022
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:41,890
have been supported or related supported

2023
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:43,810
by or related to official power

2024
01:21:48,060 --> 01:21:45,970
structures the military the CIA the

2025
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:48,070
narrative that has emerged since the

2026
01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:53,170
early 1980s is of a American military

2027
01:21:59,460 --> 01:21:55,890
and intelligence apparatus that is

2028
01:22:01,170 --> 01:21:59,470
deeply knowledgeable about UFOs and

2029
01:22:03,390 --> 01:22:01,180
aliens to the extent even that they have

2030
01:22:05,550 --> 01:22:03,400
working mutual treaties with the alien

2031
01:22:07,950 --> 01:22:05,560
intelligences have reverse-engineered

2032
01:22:09,930 --> 01:22:07,960
their technology for weapons

2033
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:09,940
applications and if you look at the

2034
01:22:13,290 --> 01:22:11,530
narratives of more recent films they've

2035
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:13,300
actually reverse engineered that

2036
01:22:18,510 --> 01:22:15,850
technology for peaceful purposes and for

2037
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:18,520
peacekeeping purposes and for national

2038
01:22:22,390 --> 01:22:20,210
security reasons

2039
01:22:24,910 --> 01:22:22,400
and are using it successfully to combat

2040
01:22:26,650 --> 01:22:24,920
enemy foreign powers and I'm time

2041
01:22:28,750 --> 01:22:26,660
referring here to the Transformers films

2042
01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:28,760
in particular but in other films as well

2043
01:22:33,250 --> 01:22:30,650
and including the new Independence Day

2044
01:22:35,230 --> 01:22:33,260
film which wasn't which didn't have the

2045
01:22:37,270 --> 01:22:35,240
direct involvement at a production level

2046
01:22:39,370 --> 01:22:37,280
of of the military but it was supported

2047
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:39,380
in its later stages in his marketing

2048
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:41,090
campaign very wholeheartedly by the

2049
01:22:45,010 --> 01:22:43,010
military and I and I would be very

2050
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:45,020
surprised quite honestly if if there

2051
01:22:48,790 --> 01:22:47,090
wasn't some covert influence on the

2052
01:22:50,580 --> 01:22:48,800
script there because it just ties in so

2053
01:22:53,350 --> 01:22:50,590
perfectly with with all of the other

2054
01:22:54,910 --> 01:22:53,360
Department of Defense backed UFO scripts

2055
01:22:57,210 --> 01:22:54,920
that have been put out over the past

2056
01:23:00,190 --> 01:22:57,220
decade or so so what you have a

2057
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:00,200
strangely is is this well it was

2058
01:23:02,980 --> 01:23:01,250
actually not strange when you think

2059
01:23:05,740 --> 01:23:02,990
about it because who watches Hollywood

2060
01:23:10,030 --> 01:23:05,750
movies well everyone Hollywood movies

2061
01:23:14,380 --> 01:23:10,040
even North Korea like Kim jong-un

2062
01:23:16,480 --> 01:23:14,390
watches Hollywood movies and you know

2063
01:23:17,940 --> 01:23:16,490
what they also sort they also see in

2064
01:23:21,610 --> 01:23:17,950
North Korea and in every other country

2065
01:23:23,770 --> 01:23:21,620
UFOs you know every military sees UFOs

2066
01:23:26,590 --> 01:23:23,780
and what every military on earth has

2067
01:23:30,370 --> 01:23:26,600
some knowledge of some interest in UFOs

2068
01:23:32,350 --> 01:23:30,380
and regardless of how deep their actual

2069
01:23:34,990 --> 01:23:32,360
involvement is with the subject every

2070
01:23:37,210 --> 01:23:35,000
earthly military has some interest

2071
01:23:39,220 --> 01:23:37,220
historical or present in UFOs and some

2072
01:23:40,330 --> 01:23:39,230
basic understanding of the fact that the

2073
01:23:42,490 --> 01:23:40,340
phenomenon represents something

2074
01:23:44,830 --> 01:23:42,500
unearthly and therefore is of national

2075
01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:44,840
security interest and what these

2076
01:23:48,820 --> 01:23:47,330
governments also recognize without

2077
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:48,830
question is that the United States

2078
01:23:53,980 --> 01:23:52,370
government has a very deep historical

2079
01:23:56,110 --> 01:23:53,990
involvement with the subject deeper than

2080
01:23:57,610 --> 01:23:56,120
any other nation and the conclusion is

2081
01:24:00,640 --> 01:23:57,620
to be drawn from that especially with

2082
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:00,650
narratives like Roswell and and and

2083
01:24:04,900 --> 01:24:03,170
landmarks like area 51 and the stories

2084
01:24:07,060 --> 01:24:04,910
that go along with those even though

2085
01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:07,070
this even though they are you know not

2086
01:24:12,130 --> 01:24:09,650
taken literally it's hard to to

2087
01:24:14,350 --> 01:24:12,140
completely divorce those stories from

2088
01:24:16,470 --> 01:24:14,360
from some basis in fact and so if you're

2089
01:24:19,440 --> 01:24:16,480
a foreign government interested in UFOs

2090
01:24:22,030 --> 01:24:19,450
Soviet Union you know North Korea

2091
01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:22,040
wherever you're gonna have some meeting

2092
01:24:24,490 --> 01:24:23,210
at some point of some people within your

2093
01:24:26,140 --> 01:24:24,500
government and have a meeting say under

2094
01:24:27,910 --> 01:24:26,150
what you know what do the what does the

2095
01:24:28,630 --> 01:24:27,920
US government actually have on this yeah

2096
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:28,640
great

2097
01:24:31,690 --> 01:24:29,930
what are they doing we know what we're

2098
01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:31,700
doing we know what we've monitored what

2099
01:24:34,049 --> 01:24:32,930
did they got and have they actually

2100
01:24:36,029 --> 01:24:34,059
reverse engineered

2101
01:24:37,949 --> 01:24:36,039
ecology and oh my god if they have what

2102
01:24:40,709 --> 01:24:37,959
are the implications of that for warfare

2103
01:24:42,059 --> 01:24:40,719
on us and do you know if this government

2104
01:24:42,869 --> 01:24:42,069
knows that these conversations are going

2105
01:24:45,449 --> 01:24:42,879
on as well

2106
01:24:48,089 --> 01:24:45,459
and so for a long time they've been

2107
01:24:51,209 --> 01:24:48,099
seeking to exploit that interest and

2108
01:24:54,179 --> 01:24:51,219
that knowledge that unspoken knowledge

2109
01:24:58,500 --> 01:24:54,189
and so going back to the early 1980s you

2110
01:25:00,089 --> 01:24:58,510
you had this effort to cede popular

2111
01:25:02,429 --> 01:25:00,099
entertainment with a very particular

2112
01:25:04,469 --> 01:25:02,439
narrative that portrays the US

2113
01:25:07,259 --> 01:25:04,479
government as supremely powerful in

2114
01:25:09,599 --> 01:25:07,269
possession of of Earth changing

2115
01:25:11,729 --> 01:25:09,609
technologies reverse engineered alien

2116
01:25:13,469 --> 01:25:11,739
technologies and more and more than that

2117
01:25:15,689 --> 01:25:13,479
actually in league with the aliens

2118
01:25:17,609 --> 01:25:15,699
themselves and this stuff permeates the

2119
01:25:19,079 --> 01:25:17,619
UFO literature as well to the extent

2120
01:25:21,469 --> 01:25:19,089
that is belief system whether or not

2121
01:25:24,290 --> 01:25:21,479
it's true whether or not it's true and

2122
01:25:26,429 --> 01:25:24,300
certainly we've been encouraged by

2123
01:25:29,279 --> 01:25:26,439
official bodies to believe that it's

2124
01:25:30,809 --> 01:25:29,289
true that's that is without doubt and

2125
01:25:32,309 --> 01:25:30,819
you can trace the seeds of that

2126
01:25:33,899 --> 01:25:32,319
disinformation campaign that

2127
01:25:35,699 --> 01:25:33,909
psychological war phone for warfare

2128
01:25:36,750 --> 01:25:35,709
campaign but at a very specific point in

2129
01:25:39,179 --> 01:25:36,760
time I mean I've done that and others

2130
01:25:41,069 --> 01:25:39,189
have done it before me so you really

2131
01:25:44,069 --> 01:25:41,079
have to ask how much of what you believe

2132
01:25:47,069 --> 01:25:44,079
what you think you know about secrecy

2133
01:25:50,759 --> 01:25:47,079
and deep politics of UFOs how much of

2134
01:25:55,199 --> 01:25:50,769
what you believe has been constructed by

2135
01:25:57,629 --> 01:25:55,209
the very people who you know who who who

2136
01:25:59,969 --> 01:25:57,639
you think have all the answers but who

2137
01:26:01,979 --> 01:25:59,979
actually but who actually and crucially

2138
01:26:04,319 --> 01:26:01,989
do not have all the answers because they

2139
01:26:06,629 --> 01:26:04,329
ultimately despite their billions of

2140
01:26:08,759 --> 01:26:06,639
dollars spent covertly on this research

2141
01:26:10,290 --> 01:26:08,769
over the years there are humans like the

2142
01:26:12,179 --> 01:26:10,300
rest of us and they're extremely

2143
01:26:13,979 --> 01:26:12,189
primitive and yes they have more

2144
01:26:16,559 --> 01:26:13,989
advanced covert technologies and they

2145
01:26:17,609 --> 01:26:16,569
have the best minds in science etc but

2146
01:26:20,219 --> 01:26:17,619
ultimately they are dealing with a

2147
01:26:21,989 --> 01:26:20,229
phenomenon that is so far beyond our

2148
01:26:24,509 --> 01:26:21,999
comprehension that yes they've drawn

2149
01:26:25,649 --> 01:26:24,519
their own conclusions they have their

2150
01:26:28,109 --> 01:26:25,659
own version of the truth

2151
01:26:31,469 --> 01:26:28,119
but it is not the truth it is their

2152
01:26:33,359 --> 01:26:31,479
truth and they do not understand what

2153
01:26:36,239 --> 01:26:33,369
they're dealing with and all they can do

2154
01:26:38,250 --> 01:26:36,249
is seek to manage our perceptions of the

2155
01:26:40,799 --> 01:26:38,260
same phenomenon that confounds them in a

2156
01:26:44,250 --> 01:26:40,809
way least incriminates them it's a power

2157
01:26:46,559 --> 01:26:44,260
point yeah you're exactly right in Robbi

2158
01:26:47,490 --> 01:26:46,569
this this sort of all ties into

2159
01:26:48,960 --> 01:26:47,500
something

2160
01:26:51,320 --> 01:26:48,970
remember hearing you speak about at a

2161
01:26:54,540 --> 01:26:51,330
lecture in Denmark and this is about

2162
01:26:56,940 --> 01:26:54,550
hyper-reality could you sort of explain

2163
01:26:58,980 --> 01:26:56,950
just exactly what this what this is in

2164
01:27:00,090 --> 01:26:58,990
how it relates to everything we've sort

2165
01:27:01,920 --> 01:27:00,100
of spoken about today

2166
01:27:03,780 --> 01:27:01,930
I mean hyper-reality something that

2167
01:27:06,780 --> 01:27:03,790
we've been alluding to really throughout

2168
01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:06,790
this and it's the it's the inability of

2169
01:27:11,100 --> 01:27:08,770
consciousness to distinguish reality

2170
01:27:13,980 --> 01:27:11,110
from a simulation of reality this is the

2171
01:27:14,970 --> 01:27:13,990
this is the popular definition of it you

2172
01:27:16,590 --> 01:27:14,980
know so it's the inability of

2173
01:27:20,400 --> 01:27:16,600
consciousness to distinguish reality

2174
01:27:22,860 --> 01:27:20,410
from a simulation of reality so again so

2175
01:27:24,210 --> 01:27:22,870
you know the the the Titanic example

2176
01:27:26,700 --> 01:27:24,220
would be would be a good one we

2177
01:27:28,350 --> 01:27:26,710
recognize that Titanic is a film but on

2178
01:27:29,790 --> 01:27:28,360
some level we really do find it very

2179
01:27:31,620 --> 01:27:29,800
hard to distinguish between that

2180
01:27:33,660 --> 01:27:31,630
fictional representation and an

2181
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:33,670
historical event itself technologies of

2182
01:27:37,830 --> 01:27:35,650
mass media have played a huge role in

2183
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:37,840
this hyperreal process this this

2184
01:27:41,670 --> 01:27:39,610
constant blurring an irreversible

2185
01:27:43,110 --> 01:27:41,680
blurring of fact and fantasy in the

2186
01:27:46,500 --> 01:27:43,120
popular consciousness on a whole range

2187
01:27:48,690 --> 01:27:46,510
of topics and issues and and so if if if

2188
01:27:51,680 --> 01:27:48,700
a movie can blur the boundaries between

2189
01:27:54,420 --> 01:27:51,690
historical fact and fantasy on a on a

2190
01:27:57,090 --> 01:27:54,430
historically accepted massively famous

2191
01:27:58,620 --> 01:27:57,100
event like the Titanic and there are

2192
01:28:00,630 --> 01:27:58,630
lots of other examples we confer to in

2193
01:28:02,910 --> 01:28:00,640
cinema history as well on historical

2194
01:28:04,440 --> 01:28:02,920
events then what what what effect does

2195
01:28:06,450 --> 01:28:04,450
this hyper real process have on our

2196
01:28:07,860 --> 01:28:06,460
perception of of something which is as I

2197
01:28:10,260 --> 01:28:07,870
say rejected by consensus reality

2198
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:10,270
rejected by official culture UFOs don't

2199
01:28:15,210 --> 01:28:12,850
exist except for those people who

2200
01:28:17,310 --> 01:28:15,220
witness them an individual level and

2201
01:28:20,250 --> 01:28:17,320
even then most of those experiences are

2202
01:28:23,160 --> 01:28:20,260
you know they defy the senses in in many

2203
01:28:25,500 --> 01:28:23,170
cases and often they experience in the

2204
01:28:26,640 --> 01:28:25,510
moment or after will question whether or

2205
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:26,650
not they've even seen what they've seen

2206
01:28:30,030 --> 01:28:28,330
did I really see that how can I see that

2207
01:28:31,380 --> 01:28:30,040
that that's not part of our reality did

2208
01:28:33,950 --> 01:28:31,390
I really see that how can I have seen

2209
01:28:35,970 --> 01:28:33,960
that like that that what I've just seen

2210
01:28:37,140 --> 01:28:35,980
belongs on the cinema screen because

2211
01:28:38,610 --> 01:28:37,150
that's where I've seen it previously but

2212
01:28:40,380 --> 01:28:38,620
now it's here in front of me how can

2213
01:28:42,930 --> 01:28:40,390
that be this is this is this is hyper

2214
01:28:46,020 --> 01:28:42,940
reality things being the you know UFOs

2215
01:28:47,400 --> 01:28:46,030
are simultaneously real and unreal in

2216
01:28:48,690 --> 01:28:47,410
the popular consciousness they're real

2217
01:28:50,910 --> 01:28:48,700
because people experience them and

2218
01:28:52,740 --> 01:28:50,920
they've profoundly affect people's lives

2219
01:28:54,510 --> 01:28:52,750
an individual level but they're unreal

2220
01:28:57,930 --> 01:28:54,520
because there are they are the stuff of

2221
01:29:00,390 --> 01:28:57,940
you know popcorn excursions hmm and

2222
01:29:01,220 --> 01:29:00,400
that's just just endlessly fascinating

2223
01:29:05,150 --> 01:29:01,230
in infuriate

2224
01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:05,160
to me me as well my friend I mean it

2225
01:29:09,290 --> 01:29:07,890
could not be summed up better than and I

2226
01:29:11,150 --> 01:29:09,300
hope I'm not stealing your thunder here

2227
01:29:15,070 --> 01:29:11,160
one of the quotes I took that you

2228
01:29:17,510 --> 01:29:15,080
personally wrote is sort of culminated

2229
01:29:19,790 --> 01:29:17,520
everything for me in terms of what you

2230
01:29:21,620 --> 01:29:19,800
research in that it came in terms of the

2231
01:29:23,300 --> 01:29:21,630
Roswell incident when you said that the

2232
01:29:26,270 --> 01:29:23,310
question of whether or not aliens

2233
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:26,280
crashed in New Mexico in 1947 is now

2234
01:29:31,310 --> 01:29:29,010
meaningless aliens definitely did crash

2235
01:29:33,950 --> 01:29:31,320
because we saw it in a movie but they

2236
01:29:35,960 --> 01:29:33,960
definitely didn't crash because we saw

2237
01:29:38,300 --> 01:29:35,970
it in a movie this is the effect of

2238
01:29:42,020 --> 01:29:38,310
cinema and this is the effect of hyper

2239
01:29:44,990 --> 01:29:42,030
reality it's a very fascinating term and

2240
01:29:47,450 --> 01:29:45,000
I know you just scratched the surface of

2241
01:29:50,810 --> 01:29:47,460
it in the book it is it's deeply

2242
01:29:52,850 --> 01:29:50,820
fascinating and like you said where does

2243
01:29:56,900 --> 01:29:52,860
it where does it begin and where does it

2244
01:29:59,060 --> 01:29:56,910
end we may never know yeah just amazing

2245
01:30:02,960 --> 01:29:59,070
uh Robbie do you do you believe there

2246
01:30:05,780 --> 01:30:02,970
are any UFO projects or groups

2247
01:30:08,750 --> 01:30:05,790
investigating UFOs within the government

2248
01:30:10,190 --> 01:30:08,760
or military today oh I'd be very

2249
01:30:13,340 --> 01:30:10,200
surprised if if that weren't the case

2250
01:30:17,090 --> 01:30:13,350
yeah I mean whether or not they exist as

2251
01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:17,100
formalized projects right today I don't

2252
01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:18,330
know certainly in the past that would

2253
01:30:22,460 --> 01:30:19,650
have been whether or not they exist

2254
01:30:24,050 --> 01:30:22,470
today as formalized projects I I mean no

2255
01:30:26,900 --> 01:30:24,060
one would know except for the people who

2256
01:30:28,190 --> 01:30:26,910
are involved in them but no I but I

2257
01:30:30,320 --> 01:30:28,200
think it's fairly safe to say that

2258
01:30:32,870 --> 01:30:30,330
certainly today as ever

2259
01:30:34,430 --> 01:30:32,880
there is serious interest in the

2260
01:30:35,930 --> 01:30:34,440
corridors of power in this phenomenon

2261
01:30:37,100 --> 01:30:35,940
it's gonna get our conspiracy people

2262
01:30:40,220 --> 01:30:37,110
going for sure

2263
01:30:41,990 --> 01:30:40,230
are there any films or television series

2264
01:30:43,700 --> 01:30:42,000
right now that you're watching that you

2265
01:30:45,680 --> 01:30:43,710
could recommend to our listeners to

2266
01:30:48,170 --> 01:30:45,690
check out maybe not even necessarily

2267
01:30:52,190 --> 01:30:48,180
about UFOs but what is Robbie Graham

2268
01:30:55,220 --> 01:30:52,200
watching these days oh my god Ryan very

2269
01:30:59,930 --> 01:30:55,230
little but I'm watching my I'm watching

2270
01:31:02,950 --> 01:30:59,940
my daughter Poe her nappy watching her

2271
01:31:05,479 --> 01:31:02,960
scream her head off when she wants

2272
01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:05,489
biscuit I'm watching her yeah the idea

2273
01:31:10,910 --> 01:31:08,730
that you're a father I get it that's

2274
01:31:13,570 --> 01:31:10,920
watching these days and it doesn't leave

2275
01:31:15,730 --> 01:31:13,580
much time unfortunately for

2276
01:31:17,800 --> 01:31:15,740
you know for concentrated viewings of

2277
01:31:21,370 --> 01:31:17,810
movies or TV shows the last thing I

2278
01:31:23,080 --> 01:31:21,380
watched this is how far behind I am with

2279
01:31:29,340 --> 01:31:23,090
everything i literally just finished

2280
01:31:38,430 --> 01:31:31,840
my friend I've actually never seen a

2281
01:31:41,980 --> 01:31:40,660
the last alien movie I saw was

2282
01:31:44,890 --> 01:31:41,990
Independence Day - I saw that at the

2283
01:31:46,750 --> 01:31:44,900
cinema and I you know cuz I needed to

2284
01:31:49,900 --> 01:31:46,760
review it really and because that was

2285
01:31:51,120 --> 01:31:49,910
the biggest sort of event alien movie to

2286
01:31:55,080 --> 01:31:51,130
have been released in quite some time

2287
01:31:57,430 --> 01:31:55,090
and I'm sad to say it is well I mean

2288
01:31:58,720 --> 01:31:57,440
opinions will differ on this but I'm sad

2289
01:32:01,840 --> 01:31:58,730
to say there's certainly not a patch on

2290
01:32:03,340 --> 01:32:01,850
the original and and it's it's not a lot

2291
01:32:04,210 --> 01:32:03,350
better than a lot of the other alien

2292
01:32:07,480 --> 01:32:04,220
crap that's out there at the moment

2293
01:32:09,550 --> 01:32:07,490
where can we find silver screen saucers

2294
01:32:11,530 --> 01:32:09,560
silver screen sources you can find my

2295
01:32:15,190 --> 01:32:11,540
website is just silver screen sources

2296
01:32:17,110 --> 01:32:15,200
dot uk' and you can if you just google

2297
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:17,120
with silver screen sources or put it

2298
01:32:20,310 --> 01:32:18,410
into any search engine silver screen

2299
01:32:23,140 --> 01:32:20,320
sources you'll find it pretty quick and

2300
01:32:24,910 --> 01:32:23,150
yeah and I write I write for mysterious

2301
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:24,920
universe so if you you know there's an

2302
01:32:29,830 --> 01:32:26,930
archive of my material there and all

2303
01:32:31,960 --> 01:32:29,840
UFOs and Hollywood material there again

2304
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:31,970
we mean me and you Ryan we're discussing

2305
01:32:35,230 --> 01:32:34,010
get before we before we launched into

2306
01:32:40,810 --> 01:32:35,240
this interview the possibility that I

2307
01:32:43,540 --> 01:32:40,820
may may may do another book but it would

2308
01:32:45,400 --> 01:32:43,550
be a lazy approach on my part because

2309
01:32:47,710 --> 01:32:45,410
it's something where I'm considering

2310
01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:47,720
acting as editor on a book which would

2311
01:32:53,470 --> 01:32:49,610
be comprised of essays by leading

2312
01:32:55,690 --> 01:32:53,480
researchers in the field on the topic of

2313
01:32:57,760 --> 01:32:55,700
ufology itself and the past present

2314
01:32:59,800 --> 01:32:57,770
future of this field the problems

2315
01:33:02,110 --> 01:32:59,810
inherent with study of the over the

2316
01:33:04,780 --> 01:33:02,120
phenomenon and with our approaches to it

2317
01:33:07,150 --> 01:33:04,790
and so it's something that that I think

2318
01:33:09,460 --> 01:33:07,160
would be very interesting and and so

2319
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:09,470
that's something that that I'm gonna be

2320
01:33:14,350 --> 01:33:11,930
probably throwing myself into quite soon

2321
01:33:16,090 --> 01:33:14,360
even considering writing another book on

2322
01:33:19,810 --> 01:33:16,100
your part I don't know how you can do it

2323
01:33:22,060 --> 01:33:19,820
I know this book Robbie silverstein

2324
01:33:26,410 --> 01:33:22,070
saucers was a long time in the making

2325
01:33:29,110 --> 01:33:26,420
your research was so heavy and

2326
01:33:31,870 --> 01:33:29,120
so absolutely just well-researched I

2327
01:33:32,800 --> 01:33:31,880
can't I can't even find more eloquent

2328
01:33:35,050 --> 01:33:32,810
words to put it to you

2329
01:33:38,290 --> 01:33:35,060
the amount of research you did detail in

2330
01:33:40,689 --> 01:33:38,300
interviews that you got in access to

2331
01:33:42,130 --> 01:33:40,699
certain people is astounding and we only

2332
01:33:45,070 --> 01:33:42,140
covered a portion of it in this

2333
01:33:47,350 --> 01:33:45,080
interview I highly suggest people give

2334
01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:47,360
the book a read I couldn't put it down I

2335
01:33:52,540 --> 01:33:49,489
finished it in probably about a week's

2336
01:33:54,340 --> 01:33:52,550
time or so so yeah hopefully hopefully

2337
01:33:56,890 --> 01:33:54,350
the listeners had a good time listening

2338
01:33:58,600 --> 01:33:56,900
to this today and I want to thank you so

2339
01:34:00,370 --> 01:33:58,610
much for joining us and can't wait to

2340
01:34:01,900 --> 01:34:00,380
see what you got next buying so much fun

2341
01:34:03,790 --> 01:34:01,910
all right that is it for this week's

2342
01:34:06,459 --> 01:34:03,800
episode if you're looking for some good

2343
01:34:09,430 --> 01:34:06,469
UFO films I hope this episode served as

2344
01:34:11,530 --> 01:34:09,440
just an introduction of what's truly out

2345
01:34:13,180 --> 01:34:11,540
there Robbie actually has a great list

2346
01:34:16,439 --> 01:34:13,190
of films over on his website

2347
01:34:21,970 --> 01:34:16,449
Robbie Graham dot uk' that's Robbie

2348
01:34:24,790 --> 01:34:21,980
gra8ful at his website you can also find

2349
01:34:28,120 --> 01:34:24,800
his books silver screen saucers and the

2350
01:34:31,090 --> 01:34:28,130
newly released UFOs reframing the debate

2351
01:34:33,580 --> 01:34:31,100
of which I am one of the contributors so

2352
01:34:35,919 --> 01:34:33,590
definitely check that one out for guests

2353
01:34:37,840 --> 01:34:35,929
in topic suggestions use the contact tab

2354
01:34:40,900 --> 01:34:37,850
at the website somewhere in the skies

2355
01:34:43,120 --> 01:34:40,910
calm all past episodes can also be found

2356
01:34:46,510 --> 01:34:43,130
there twitter is at somewhere skies

2357
01:34:48,220 --> 01:34:46,520
instagram at somewhere skies pod also

2358
01:34:49,030 --> 01:34:48,230
thank you to all of my patreon

2359
01:34:51,490 --> 01:34:49,040
subscribers

2360
01:34:52,930 --> 01:34:51,500
you are making the show happen and grow

2361
01:34:54,910 --> 01:34:52,940
each and every week

2362
01:34:56,979 --> 01:34:54,920
the rewards are growing for the show as

2363
01:34:59,320 --> 01:34:56,989
well so if you want a ton a bonus

2364
01:35:02,020 --> 01:34:59,330
content early release of episodes and

2365
01:35:04,720 --> 01:35:02,030
the ability to pick my topics and guests

2366
01:35:07,209 --> 01:35:04,730
please consider supporting the show by

2367
01:35:10,229 --> 01:35:07,219
becoming a patreon subscriber to learn

2368
01:35:13,180 --> 01:35:10,239
more and to contribute visit patreon.com

2369
01:35:15,459 --> 01:35:13,190
backslash somewhere skies I will see you

2370
01:35:17,919 --> 01:35:15,469
here next week and remember keep your

2371
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:17,929
feet on the ground but never stop

2372
01:35:23,170 --> 01:35:29,530
[Music]

2373
01:35:31,930 --> 01:35:29,980
[Applause]

2374
01:35:33,910 --> 01:35:31,940
[Music]

2375
01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:33,920
somewhere in the skies is produced by

2376
01:35:37,810 --> 01:35:35,690
Third Kind productions in association

2377
01:35:39,910 --> 01:35:37,820
with antica productions and the antic a

2378
01:35:43,990 --> 01:35:39,920
podcast network to learn more visit

2379
01:35:46,209 --> 01:35:44,000
antica productions comm have you ever

2380
01:35:48,189 --> 01:35:46,219
rewatched a movie from the past did it

2381
01:35:50,979 --> 01:35:48,199
hold up or did you regret it immediately

2382
01:35:52,930 --> 01:35:50,989
no need to re-watch the mask or look

2383
01:35:54,939 --> 01:35:52,940
who's talking alone or the rewatch

2384
01:35:56,920 --> 01:35:54,949
ability podcast and each week we jump

2385
01:35:58,780 --> 01:35:56,930
back in time to revisit movies and TV

2386
01:36:01,510 --> 01:35:58,790
shows to see if they stand a test of

2387
01:36:04,090 --> 01:36:01,520
time we laugh we'll cry we'll discuss a

2388
01:36:06,100 --> 01:36:04,100
surprising amount of racism and misogyny

2389
01:36:08,170 --> 01:36:06,110
in our favorite movies from Twin Peaks

2390
01:36:10,209 --> 01:36:08,180
to Forrest Gump to the Jungle Book we

2391
01:36:12,220 --> 01:36:10,219
watch movies and TV from any genre and

2392
01:36:14,350 --> 01:36:12,230
any decade you can subscribe and listen

2393
01:36:17,229 --> 01:36:14,360
to our podcast on iTunes rewatchable e

2394
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:17,239
decom or your local podcast network you

2395
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:18,890
can also follow us on social media a